www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy A Discussion with Father David about Reform

Dear Rilian,

I find it hard to believe, as well. I think maybe she doesn't have a watch.

Dear Alice,

When I was a boy, our pastor in the Roman church could get through a mass in 18 minutes, without omitting anything. I know, because my brother and I timed it with our fancy digital watches, back in the 80's when digital watches were cool.

Pseudo-Athanasius,

"What is the positive benefit to the faithful of mandating that the antiphons only be one verse each?"

There is no mandate that only one verse be taken, they simply aren't putting all the verses in the pew book.

As has been stated before, the cantor's book will have the extra verses and I am completely confident that any parish that takes all the antiphon verses will continue to do so. It is annoying that the extra verses will have to be on photocopied sheets and handed out rather than in the book but that is hardly an insurmountable obstacle.

The same goes for the Little Litanies or the Litany of Supplication after the Great Entrance.

But the pew book simply reflects the customary practice of the about 98% of the Metropolia. For better or worse one verse has been custom for about 40 years now.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Pittsburgh is full of some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. Down to earth, way down even on top of the hills, and not afraid to work hard and dirty, tough hides, hard heads, mushy hearts but not soft.

Very very sane. If they aren't connected to a reality they like, they will make a better reality up and live that and make everybody else live it too so that we're all on the same page, so to speak!! It is one of my favorite people-cities. I could live there but I'd carry a mule-stick!



Eli

This is exceptionally disappointing to hear. I can no longer imagine a Sunday parish liturgical commitment that did not waste 2.5 hours of my life every Sunday and then social time too. Thankfully I don't really need to imagine it, but as Alice says, there are times when the aridity of the Novus Ordo is a blessing as the desert comes after the mountain top.

I do not believe either one of those experiences should be measured on a time piece. Of course I am also in favor of going back to much more severe fasting periods for all Catholics who have slipped into the lethargy of abundance.

It is astonishing how unpopular one can become in one brief life time just by saying a few words.

I hope and pray that Father David comes back to Pittsburgh safe and sound and opens the "door" gently that he slammed in our faces earlier in this thread, and bothers to ask rather than tell. That would be a God-send, I think. All that shrilling and foot-stomping has done no good for anyone.

Eli

Was there ever another time period other than the last 40 years when this has been so?

Monomakh

John,

"The issue of language in the Greek and Russian Churches is not one where they refuse to use the vernacular. These Churches consider �Liturgical Greek� and Church Slavonic to be vernacular languages. I do not know either fluently but those who do tell me that a reasonable comparison to modern speakers is the English of the King James Bible times two for Church Slavonic (twice as antiquated) and times three for Liturgical Greek. A friend from Russia assures me that the people who fill the Churches there can understand the Divine Services. My maternal grandmother spoke �Po-Nashemu�, Russian, Hungarian, Slovak, Polish, Ukrainian and English. My mother remembers her mom telling her that she understood the texts of the liturgy, but just not every word. [Perhaps Chaucer would be a better comparison here than the King James Version of the Bible?]

We can also consider the continued use of the King James Version of the Bible by many Protestants as almost the equivalent of the use of Elizabethan English by some Byzantine Churches. The KJV and the Elizabethan style of English are not as antiquated as Church Slavonic or Liturgical Greek but I think the comparison is not an unfair one."

The following is from the first sentence of the Prologue from The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer:

"Whan that Aprill with his shoures sote
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the rote,
And bathed euery veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in euery holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe course yronne,
And smale fowles maken melodye,
That slepen al the niht with open ye�
So priketh hem Nature in hir corages�
Than longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,
To ferne halwes, couthe in sondry londes;
And specially, from euery shires ende
Of Engelond to Caunterbury they wende,
The holy blissful martir for to seke,
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seke."

I would say your estimation that Chaucer's Middle English is closer is correct, but would deny that Middle English along with Old Slavonic or Koine Greek can be considered venacular for speakers of modern English, Rusyn or Greek.

Certainly, certain words are recognizable, even phrases but on whole it is hadly venacular. It is also worth noting that both modern Greek and Russian are being asked for by clergy and faithful alike, especially those interested in reaching and keeping the youth, in both the Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. David is not the entire liturgical commission, and he is not a bishop. He is a scholar who is doing a job that has been assigned to him, and he is doing it conscientiously. He has said that he does not personally agree with every one of the choices made by the liturgical commission. It is one thing to disagree with him, but it is another to attack him personally, to accuse him of betraying the Church, and to blame him for decisions that are not his. Fr. David does not deserve the abuse that he has been taking on this forum. If I were in his position, I'm not sure I could refrain from some foot-stomping and door-slamming.

FD Lance, do you know (does anyone know?) whether the festal antiphons (apart from Pascha) will be in either of the books you mention? Do you know whether or not the full psalms will be in the Cantor's book or just the widely-accepted several-verse version? What is the rationale for that deprivation? Ditto for the rest of the psalmody - as Joe Thur liked to note - that has fallen out of use.

DJS,

To my knowledge the Festive aniphons will be in the pew books, one verse. The cantor's book will have the several verses that the blue book has.

Why? Because it has become the accepted custom I suppose.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father David is a priest first, and a sensitive wordsmith much much lower down the line of his being and accomplishments.

As I said before and can repeat as often as you like, this Church needs a strengthening leadership, not one that threatens, pushes, shoves, shrills and slams, in order for us to become a truly great Church, and perhaps even if we are to survive.

Eli

Seems as though I am good for an idiot's question at least once a day lately.

Is there any chance that the "missing" parts could be added to the pew books prior to printing? Or is all that finished and ready to ship or has shipped?

Eli

Eli,

I don't know the answer to that one.

Fr. Deacon Lance

For goodness sake--I am so tired of this and cannot take much more...IF your parish sings all three verses on Sundays and Feasts that have proper antiphons, then create inserts with the additional verses and paste them into the inside front cover of the new books! NO ONE is going to report you to the liturgical police and have your priest, cantor/choir, or congregation thrown into the undercroft jail behind the furnace room in your respective cathedral because you sing 2 more verses of 3 psalms!

Forgive me for ranting, but we are adults. This is not 1890 Wilkes-Barre, or 1938 Bridgeport. Just sing the antiphons if you already do.

Feeling much better now...

John K.

Since questions are being asked about what is in the new pew book, does anyone know if posture directives, i.e. STAND, SIT, KNEEL, will be included in the new book and what they are?

I ask because a large portion of my parish has returned to standing for nearly the entire Sunday Liturgy and would hate to see that disappear.

Could you find out from someone who does?

Eli