www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy!

OK, Everyone just hold on here!

It is great that you want a conference/sobor to air this issue out which is to be commended, but I see a lot of planning and speculation and none of the proper protocols of the church are being followed.

1.) Has anyone in the hierarchy been even approached and a blessing been given for this to have any standing?

2.) If no blessing has been sought, how can can you involve anyone officially without the hierarch's consent i.e. members of the liturgical commission?

3.) Any speakers would have to agree to speak and present at this conference/sobor. Has anyone approached any of the proposed speakers directly and then obtained the permission for them to be involved?

I can go on, and some others have already made mention as to the haste that is being put into this event's planning. If you do not do this the right way, your efforts will not be given any weight within the church, and will make many look bad from the organizers to the hierarchy which could have some negative effects. Instead of speculating and making plans for something that will be for nought, start working at it from the right way and have everyone on board.

You complain that you are not being given the information, well you may not get it in the right way if you do not do this planning and event in the proper manner. By your upsurping the proper protocol, you may be cutting off a golden opportunity to have this addressed in the proper forum.

So let us stop speculating and wishing and start doing it in the right manner.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

We'd be wise to heed Fr. Anthony's words.

While the situation seems like all is lost, we should keep our cool.

What is the purpose of the meeting? Non-confrontational in tone I hope? What type of agenda is best.

The liturgical crisis is likely a sympton of a spiritual sickness. We need the diagnosis and then a cure (which is Christ).

This is about more than BEMA, it really involves the future of Eastern Catholicism. BEMA could help facilitate the conference/workshop.

We need to do this in concert with our Bishops.

In Christ,

John

CDL wrote... What can I say but Yikes! Yes - what you suggest has happened before - I believe it was called the Reformation.

Perhaps the rhetoric can be toned down a bit?


~Isaac

Amen to John and Father Anthony!

But let's be sure not to "drop the proverbial ball"...we just need to ensure that we have a gameplan...and that takes time!

Gordo

The track record of the Bishops thus far would suggest that they are not going to give the laity the time of day on this subject. If this should prove to be the case, after attempting to follow protocol, what happens next?

We shouldn't presume to judge, nor preempt in a potentially impatient or imprudent manner. We really need to let the hierarchs at least have the opportunity to act and lead - that is a minimal respect we can show them at this difficult time. Fr. Anthony is right. Regarding what ifs - we can worry about those forever. Contingencies can be discussed and thrown around when the need arises.
FDD

I'll suggest an answer in a couple of days. In other words, I agree with Diak.

CDL

I agree and I will. However, my references were not to Protestantism. It has happened many times throughout the Church and it has happened, before my time, but in the BC Church.

CDL

I think there is a lot of apprehension, and, with
the blessing of the interenet, a lot of feedback about this apprehension. Noise + feedback makes coherent excitation.

Is this a more pivotal event than the change to English? Probably not. Than the publication of the 1965 Liturgikon ? Probably so. Is this the last English edition we will have? Fr. Petras already said that he expects the answer to the last question is no; and I agree.

I am not sure what the criteria of "fair" are in this context. It really depends on the goals of the meeting.

I haven't seen a suggestion to this end as yet, but I would welcome representatives also from the GOA - which may be the largest Orthodox group with English-language liturgies. I would like to hear how the Greeks wrestled with "philanthropos" and why they opted for renderings that are similar, and in some case identical, to those that are used in our new text, as posted by Bl Theodore. Perhaps this is a case where the the line from the Instructions on "deviating ... as little as possible" will have the emphasis on "as possible" rather than "as little". I think it would be fair also to hear from Paul Meyendorff.

Thanks you Fr. Anthony's, for your post.

What are we thinking about doing, anyway?

I have sent a note to Bishop John asking for his blessing. My hope is that the meeting will be educational in nature. There seems to be enough interest in having a meeting. I don't wish it to be confrontational. If the approach is to have the text available for all participants and have the commission and Father Keleher there to go through the entire liturgy that would be optimal. My hope is that we will also have Luke from New Mexico there so that he can share his concerns but also hear from the commission.

Father and others are right to council prudence. Pray that we will follow such advice but that we will move ahead as well. Promulgation of the any liturgy should be done only after it is given a thorough review by the people. That is my hope.

CDL

djs,

I'm not sure of your point. The subtlety is perhaps lost on me...are you just trying to set it all in perspective? I certainly would not say that this meeting's level of importance would trump everything else that has gone before. But, apart from the internet, it would be the first chance (to my knowledge) that a larger portion of the laity and clergy have had to come together to discuss this critical issue. In that sense, I see it as "pivotal".

"Fairness" in this context means time for the speakers to prepare their remarks...time for the hierarchs and the commission to process Father Serge's comments...maybe not the best choice of words. How about the overused word "appropriate"? :p

I would personally agree, djs. I think there should be some effort at a pan-Byzantine conference to tackle these issues, in the context of the mission of Eastern Christianity in the English-speaking world.

But barring an harmonic convergence of cosmic proportions hitherto unknown in the history of mankind, that larger event will not take place in six weeks. Some people expect more notice for birthday parties! I think we are talking about two events - one smaller and more specific to the Metropolia (with Father David and Father Serge). The other much larger with a broader scope involving far more planning.

Gordo

I'm with you on that, John. I'll bring my hammer and nails. We can have a church raising party to start! (Where's Jimmy Carter when you really need him...)

Gordo

I wish to reiterate why I have stuck my neck out to see if we can have a meeting on this proposed liturgy. My concern has not been first and foremost about the liturgy. I am no liturgist. I have a vague sense that political correctness is a danger to the Church. I see that playing around with gender specifications has brought great harm to American and probably European Christianity. I'm a strong believer in the principles of the Theology of the Body but that isn't even my primary concern. Nor am I interested in pounding away at the translation committee. God knows, preparing new translations is a difficult task and rather thankless. I have the greatest admiration for Father David.

My concern is two fold.

First, I came to the Church because I was tired of the theological chaos of Protestantism. When I looked at Roman Catholicism I saw a great deal of that same chaos. I didn't not realize it fully but a good deal of it came or was reflected in the chaos that had become the liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church. So, I bypassed the RCs. The sense of the people I respect here see the possibility of that same chaos creeping in the Eastern Catholic Church in the form of this new recension.

Are they correct. I have no idea. I see gentle and highly regarded people on both sides of the issue. Yet, I don't have the liturgy in front of me. People wish to examine it in a forum in which fruitful discussion is possible before it is promulgated. I believe they are correct. So, let's do it before it is promulgated. Will we need more than one setting in which to do that? Some of my trusted friends believe so. They may well be right. Be that as it may, one cannot have a second meeting without a first. So, let's have a first. BEMA has a track record and they have agreed to set up the place and set certain positive parameters as they did last August in Whiting. I have made a few initial contacts. We will see what happens.

Second, my primary urge is beyond the liturgy. One of the reasons I was eager to become Eastern Catholic is because we a reason for existence. It is articulated, even if not everyone is on board with it. Our mission, our reason for existence, is to bring Orthodoxy and Catholicism back together. I know, I know. Those who aren't Eastern Catholic consider us to be either traitors or an annoyance. Why wouldn't they? Our very existence is a constant reminder of their worst failure. Some within the Eastern Catholic family have even bought into their worst descriptions of us.

I do not. We are Orthodox in Communion with Rome. Someday, and none of us may live long enough to see it, millions will be Orthodox in Communion with Rome and millions upon millions will be Catholic in communion with Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Greece, and Moscow.

The best way to fulfill that mission is to tell it over and over and over to the end that we stop shrinking and start growing.

I love this Church. I love our bishops, clergy, and faithful. Let's get focused and let's get going. It seems providential to me that the catalyst for positive movement is a serious discussion of our liturgy.

Let's do it.

CDL

Karl and John S have weighed in on a conference. Things are looking up. We have a principle speaker and may be getting more. We shall see.

CDL

On the book thread we are left with two questions appropos to this issue: Do all of the priests in the Metropolia have Father Serge's book or not? If they do, how do with thank the anonymous benefactor?

If every priest has one and if every priest has a copy of the proposed translation it should be easy to have a conference with educated laity provided that: 1. Every priest makes both the new translation and Father's book available to the laity; and 2. Every Church comes with representatives of that Church.

I'm pretty sure that every priest has a copy of the new proposed translation. Does in fact every priest have a copy of Father Keleher's book? If not how do we get the book to them?

CDL