The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
EasternChristian19, James OConnor, biblicalhope, Ishmael, bluecollardpink
6,161 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (Erik Jedvardsson, 2 invisible), 535 guests, and 86 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,511
Posts417,527
Members6,161
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Note the language these days. The 'Archibishop' and others the 'Metropolitan'. I have noted how since the death of Metropolitan Judson that there has been a shrinking back to 'Archbishop'. Not the head of a church just another American Archbishop, one amongst many. Is it that the Byz bishops are not ready for this self governing church stuff, all a bit too much for them. Did it all come to quickly to them?

Now to make more coffee.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 1
Real Renewal is a whole package. The MCI has done wonderful work on our chant. The ECF programs are full of great materials. Now we need the full and complete Divine Liturgy.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 674
Member
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 674
Quote
Originally posted by JohnS.:
Real Renewal is a whole package. The MCI has done wonderful work on our chant. The ECF programs are full of great materials. Now we need the full and complete Divine Liturgy.
Well, we agree on two out of three! smile

The ECF has great materials, and we need the full and complete Divine Liturgy.

Nick smile

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,189
Likes: 3
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,189
Likes: 3
Quote
Originally posted by JohnS.:
Why can't we restore the WHOLE tradition?

Nick

----

Perhaps there is a perception that the laity can't handle it?
I've noted that presumption. Why don't they find out through a conference. They may fear that we are more capable than they presume.

CDL

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
Note the language these days. The 'Archibishop' and others the 'Metropolitan'. I have noted how since the death of Metropolitan Judson that there has been a shrinking back to 'Archbishop'. Not the head of a church just another American Archbishop, one amongst many. Is it that the Byz bishops are not ready for this self governing church stuff, all a bit too much for them. Did it all come to quickly to them?

Now to make more coffee.
smile Make it strong. We're going to be up late I think.

Which tradition are you following in your suggestion of criticism here? Greek or Slavic?

The Crown represents the Metropolis. The Crozier represents the Ecclisia.

There is a Slavic and Antiochian tradition with the use of Metropolitan and Archbishop, in rank order.

There is a Greek tradition with the use of Archbishop and Metropolitan, in rank order.

To which tradition is the Byzantine Church going to hew? Greek or Slavic?

Also an Archbishop may have provenence over suffragen bishops in his Archbishopric.

Does the Byzantine Archbishop Basil have provenence over suffragen bishops?

Does he not have it?

Why not?

Does he have it and not use it?

If so, and no, why not?

Eli

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
The one that matters is the answer. The one that is appropriate to the statement. I very well aware of the Greek Church and my own Slavic tradition and the usuage of the titles in both and how they line up with each other.

His Beatitude the Metroplitan heads the Particular Church (BCC). There are 4 Hierarchs in that particular Church including the Metropolitan. These details are available through many sources.

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,555
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
The one that matters is the answer. The one that is appropriate to the statement. I very well aware of the Greek Church and my own Slavic tradition and the usuage of the titles in both and how they line up with each other.

His Beatitude the Metroplitan heads the Particular Church (BCC). There are 4 Hierarchs in that particular Church including the Metropolitan. These details are available through many sources.
Dear Pavel,

I hope you do not think me rude here but this does not answer my questions. In fact I don't really understand what you are saying here at all.

Not only is your response unclear to me but the behaviors of the hierarchy of my Church do not make the answers very clear to me, at all, so I will ask one last time here in hopes that someone can answer, what I believe to be, legitimate questions. I may have possible answers in principle but I do not know if the Archbishop of the Byzantine Church for example has provenence over suffragen bishops? Some Archbishops do, some do not. What does it mean? How does one know? What are the canons that regulate such things?

Which tradition are you following in your suggestion of criticism here? Greek or Slavic?

The Crown represents the Metropolis. The Crozier represents the Ecclisia.

There is a Slavic and Antiochian tradition with the use of Metropolitan and Archbishop, in rank order.

There is a Greek tradition with the use of Archbishop and Metropolitan, in rank order.

To which tradition is the Byzantine Church going to hew? Greek or Slavic?

Also an Archbishop may have provenence over suffragen bishops in his Archbishopric.

Does the Byzantine Archbishop Basil have provenence over suffragen bishops?

Does he not have it?

Why not?

Does he have it and not use it?

If so, and no, why not?

Eli

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Ok. The BCC is a Slavic Byz. Cath. Tradition. This means that in decending order it is Patriarch, Metropolitan, Archibishop (may also be the Metropolitan), Bishop (in Greek usuage refered to as Metropolitan.

The BCC Province (also a 'Particular Church' in this case) is one Metropolitan who is the Archbishop of Pittsburgh and 3 suffragan bishops (of Eparchy of Parma, Eparchy of Van Nuys and Eparchy of Passaic) This provides coverage for the entire USA (ALL states). There are no assistant bishops. However there is a retired bishop in ill health formerly of Van Nuys.

I hope that clear this up for you. Further info is available on https://www.byzcath.org/

I hope this has been helpful.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
H
Administrator
Member
Administrator
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,700
Quote
Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich:
However there is a retired bishop in ill health formerly of Van Nuys.
There are actually two retired Bishops (Bishop Michael and Bishop George).

But, we are well off-topic in this thread calling for a conference.

the unworthy,
Elias

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Likes: 1
Administrator
Member
Administrator
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Likes: 1
Quote
But, we are well off-topic in this thread calling for a conference.

the unworthy,
Elias
Yes, I have to agree, this thread is way off topic. Can be get back on topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,189
Likes: 3
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,189
Likes: 3
I'll give it a go...

I think we talk ourselves to death so we won't have to actually do anything. Fear makes us all avoid loving action. If we loved God and His Church more than we feared repurcussions we'd have a conference on the future of the Church with the liturgy as one of the topics.

Do you all want our Church to continue the downward spiral we're in?

We let Luke stick his neck out in New Mexico and watch as the rug is pulled out from under him. Such courage. :rolleyes:

Father Maximos and the HRM was willing to offer wonderful spiritual fortifications to the Church but because of cowardice their support was pulled. We watched it happen. :rolleyes:

Several Churches are closed? Sure the bishop had the power to do it but nothing was done to make these positive moves. They were just shut down with no redeeming reason. We watched it happen. Such courage. :rolleyes:

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the liturgy but many of you have complained strongly about some of the changes. Having a conference would be one way for our bishops to show some positive leadership. Nothing. Nothing at all except the word that it would take a miracle if the liturgy was not promulgated as is. We watch it happen and do nothing. Such courage. :rolleyes:

We see tiny little churches all over the place. There's certainly nothing intrinsically wrong with tiny little Churches but why are half of all of the Churches in the eparchy of Parma in Cleveland? Why do we have people begging to be considered for ordination and nothing happening? Why don't we hear from our bishops in clear, compassionate, and passionate terms where they intend to lead us? We watch and nothing happens. Such courage. :rolleyes:

Let's bring it even closer to home. There must be more real evangelization going on than what anyone reads on these fora. There has to be. A person can do more evangelization than what we've read here by simply taking a few breaths. How can one say one is moving along in theosis if they are not sharing the Gospel?

Please, don't misunderstand. I'm thankful for the few stories that we've read and I'm certain that God is using them for His glory and for our good, but really, its like pulling teeth. So much talk around the subject and so little offering of what is being done. (God bless you Sophia and Luke. Keep up the good work.) But how can we just sit by and watch this decline and this lack of leadership and do so little? How can we sit back and watch some priests and some laypeople stick their necks out and watch them get chopped off and do nothing? How can we just watch it happen? Such courage.

Someone advised me to just sit back and watch. Don't let others know what you are doing. This is Church politics and people play dirty. As you can see I'm not taking his advice.

Why? If my priest who has much to lose can stick his neck out I'm sure not going to sit around and do nothing when I have virtually nothing to lose.

There is something very freeing when one leaves everything they knew, almost all of their friends, everything one has trained for and practiced, and the only means of support to become a member of the BC Church. "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

What have you given up for the Gospel and for the most beautiful liturgy the world has ever seen? What? What?

CDL

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 44
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 44
Quote
We see tiny little churches all over the place. There's certainly nothing intrinsically wrong with tiny little Churches but why are half of all of the Churches in the eparchy of Parma in Cleveland? Why do we have people begging to be considered for ordination and nothing happening? Why don't we hear from our bishops in clear, compassionate, and passionate terms where they intend to lead us? We watch and nothing happens. Such courage.
Here here!

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
There, there!

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,885
I can't see that happening. Engagement, capacity building, Inclusiveness and collaboration are not in the language and style of the Holy Synod of the BCC.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 187
Orthodoxy or Death
Orthodoxy or Death
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 187
Quote
We see tiny little churches all over the place. There's certainly nothing intrinsically wrong with tiny little Churches but why are half of all of the Churches in the eparchy of Parma in Cleveland?
The churches in Cleveland are there because that's were the Slavs emigrated to -- plain and simple. Scott you shouldn't be hung-up on the number of churches in Cleveland, or in any other area for that matter. As one poster said, we should not be closing churches, we should be evangelizing to people in the surrounding neighborhoods. Those churches in Cleveland should be full -- filled with people who live in the area whether or not they are Slavs.

The down fall of may current Byzantine Catholic Churches is that the people believe the Byzantine Church belongs to the Slavs. Our people (the average joe in the pew) need to be educated on the state of our church. I firmly believe that many people would be more welcoming if they understood the peril the church is facing. Byzantine Catholics need to understand that the Byzantine Church is open to all, regardless of race or ethnicity.

Should we have churches in every state and major city -- yes! Should we close churches in Cleveland, no -- we should evangelize so that those churches become the model. But, alas, we have to begin, and in that I share Carson Daniel Lauffer's frustrations!

Page 9 of 11 1 2 7 8 9 10 11

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0