www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy kai pantwn....kai paswn

Repeat after me: MANGLED not MALIGNED; MANGLED not MALIGNED; MANGLED not MALIGNED



What a morning!

Later,

Eli

This is rather aside from the subject matter, but clearly I am corresponding elsewhere with Greek monks, who are Greeks, native Greek speakers and scholars, who disagree with your strict translation of classical Greek in this context, and insist upon a different handling of the liturgical translation and treatment of the Greek of that period, in this context as a hieratic language.

As I said earlier, I am the messenger and a poor one indeed, as I scramble and mangle the messages and suggestions. I pursue the matter because of the source of the question and small challenge to your's and clearly an accepted translation.

If I were dealing with my own pet translation, then I'd be in a better position to express things as I see them. As it is I am in the middle seeking some reconciliation or some source for such disparate conclusions. You see the difficulty.

But I go no further with it by bringing my source data closer to the Forum because I see no reason to subject holy men, and learned men to the kinds of comments found above.

If I have further substantial inquiry about this or the other translations, I'll be back.

Eli

As the term "native" is pejorative in most English speaking countries (outside the USA) and this is an International forum and not all of us are of European decent, is it really necessary to describe the Greeks as "native" speakers and scholars.

Originally posted by Pavel:

Native (adj.): belonging to one by birth; �my native land,� �one�s native language.�

( http://www.wordreference.com/definition/native )

As a matter of curiosity, which specific Politically Correct term(s) are you suggesting be used as an alternative?


~Isaac

If Greek is their first language, then say so. The other term has it's own baggage and history much of which is quiet racist.

Originally posted by Pavel:

In Australia perhaps. Such is certainly not the case in my neck of the woods. I know several self-styled �Native-Hawaiians� who speak �native Hawaiian� (as opposed to pidgin English) and would be quite offended by your personal view of their use of the word.


~Isaac

In most of the Non American English speaking world actually. It is not my private view of the term either. It is quiet ignorant of you to suggest so. You need to get out more into the world. Dont be so provincial, there many dialects of English in the world and not all usages in one are acceptable in the others. This is an international forum and the request was for some consideration of others.

In the wider world people described as the "natives" were regarded and treated for a very long time as lesser beings.

Originally posted by Pavel:

Actually, I have traveled (and lived abroad) a fair amount � 13 countries and counting (six of which were native English speaking nations). For you to falsely assume that I have not traveled the �wider world� without any factual basis one way or the other and then labeling me as �provincial� in turn strikes me as being rather �ignorant� on your part.

If you want to be Politically Correct, then do so, but please refrain from imposing your PC views on others.


~Isaac

No one was imposing anything but you. A request ot be considerate of others is not an imposition. Being aware of different usuages in English will save the more aware from having to apologise to people with the line "you have excuse my American friend the offending word means something else over there".

Anyway you have a problem with this so I leave it with you. There are many more people on the forum who are seasonsed international travellers who are well aware of what I was referring to and to whom it is not such a big deal.

Merely because someone is a 'native Greek speaker' doesn't make them an authority on Ancient of Koin� Greek. There are no native speakers of Koin� Greek left in this world. Try asking the average American to translate Beowulf, or even The Canterbury Tales - being a 'native speaker' of a modern form (or sub-form even) of English doesn't mean a thing.

There exists no Greek institution of study (aside from the Universities of Athens and Thessaloniki) where the level of excellence in the Classical and Koin� forms of the language comes close to that of Oxford, Cambridge, University College London and King's College London. I have a First-Class Bachelor of Arts degree in Classics from King's College London, and I say this not as a boast, but as proof of academic credentials to show that I *do* know what I'm talking about and will engage in scholarly debate any who wishes to dispute the meaning of πᾶς.

Ancient and Koin� Greek has a perfectly good word for 'each'. It happens to be ἑκάστος ἑκάστη ἑκάστον - and it means the direct opposite of πᾶς πᾶσα πᾶν. λέυκος means white, and can never mean black, no matter how many holy Greek scholars, monks and clerics say so.


Koin� Greek is Koin� Greek - we are talking about a simple adjective here, not a complex concept such as προσοπον, εὐλόγια or πνεύμα. It's not a matter of Hieratic Greek - the Holy Spirit did not invent a special form of Greek where the adjective 'all' means 'all' in some places and 'each/individual' in others.

You don't have to - simply provide me with a quote (with reference to author, edition, page and column numbers) from any academic work or lexicon which permits 'each/individual' as a possible translation of πᾶς. You are not limited to English for these academic works. Lexica and grammars in Modern Greek, Russian, French, Italian, German, Latin, Spanish, Ukrainian, Hungarian and Dutch are admissible - as I can also check quotes works in those languages. A reference to a single Greek quote, from Linear A to modern Greek, where πᾶς is used in a context such that the meaning is clearly 'each' will also do. If you have no access to such works, I'm sure your monastic and scholarly sources will. No need to name your monastic and scholarly sources - a simple verbatim statement of their explanation of when and how πᾶς may be translated as 'each' will do.

πᾶς has never, ever meant 'each'. Not in any extant Greek literature or writing. Nowhere was it ever translated as 'each' until some American Greeks in the 1960s decided to mangle the language in producing a liturgy book.

Please forgive me. I was not suggesting that you do not know what you are talking about.

I was merely suggesting that for someone like myself, there is a certain credibility projected by a Greek monk with equal and even more advanced credentials from schools which you obviously approve [I can say that now since I know what your's are], who suggests that the meaning of the phrase is to say that "all" is expressed by one as all in its wholeness, and "all" in the other is expressed as all as it appears in its each or every individual part.

So you see it is a bit more detailed an explanation than to simply say "each." They are both all, but all seen in two different ways.

In fact another priest who knows the Slavonic says that the Slavonic translation supports the understanding offered by the Greek monk.

Now I see no reason for anyone to get terribly upset over it.

I simply find my sources to be just as credible as I might find you to be as a source, and that, and I speak only for myself, mind you, is bolstered by the fact that it expresses very well the Church's understanding of the Body of Christ. So that lends an added element of credibility to the translations that would express the idea as I mentioned it.

What I do appreciate is your careful explanations and willingness to tell me, or us, what you know. And I thank you for that and appreciate your input and detailed explanations.

Eli

Not that I'm upset, but this is quite fascinating. This is obviously a meaning I've never heard of before - would you be so kind then, as to add to my knowledge, by asking your other sources to supply references to support this meaning?

Again, any lexica, grammars or articles on this topic and explaining this further will be gratefully received. I've provided references to books - I'm certain kind Greek monks and the priest who knows Slavonic can support their explanations with references, and will be more than glad to share knowledge.

As I mentioned earlier:
[QUOTE]provide me with a quote (with reference to author, edition, page and column numbers) from any academic work or lexicon which permits 'each/individual' as a possible translation of πᾶς. You are not limited to English for these academic works. Lexica and grammars in Modern Greek, Russian, French, Italian, German, Latin, Spanish, Ukrainian, Hungarian and Dutch are admissible - as I can also check quotes works in those languages. A reference to a single Greek quote, from Linear A to modern Greek, where πᾶς is used in a context such that the meaning is clearly 'each' will also do. If you have no access to such works, I'm sure your monastic and scholarly sources will. No need to name your monastic and scholarly sources - a simple verbatim statement of their explanation of when and how πᾶς may be translated as 'each' will do. [QUOTE]

Please do ask them, as I'd really like to know. I just got off the phone with the Professor of Greek at King's College London, who nearly choked on afternoon Gin & Tonic, and he'd like to know too. When he is back in the office tomorrow, he is going to dash emails to the Regius Professors of Greek at Cambridge, Oxford and Trinity (Dublin) to see if this is an exciting new discovery hitherto unknown to any of us.

Obviously, the Great Liddell & Scott, the standard scholarly Lexicon of the Greek Language needs revising.

O heavens! I am quite surprised you'd go to all this trouble. Don't worry. I am sure Oxford and Trinity would trump all old monks, each and every time.

I am sure that "on behalf of all and for all" will do just fine as a liturgical translation for an additional few more hundred years or so.

Eli

Dear Edward:
I have a word file:
"THE DIVINE LITURGY OF OUR FATHER AMONG THE SAINTS JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
Diocese of Sourozh 1999
http://www.sourozh.org/liturgy/Chrysostom.htm"

The link doesn't seem to work. But the text has:

"Amongst the first, remember, O Lord, his holiness, Alexis, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, and our bishop, Anthony, Metropolitan of Sourozh, and grant that, for thy holy churches in peace, safety, honour, health and length of days, they may rightly proclaim the word of thy truth.

People: And each and all."

You may know folks involved in that translation; it would be interesting to find out what they think.

Probably like the holy Metropolitan in heaven, where they do all liturgy right all the time.