www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy kai pantwn....kai paswn

I was wondering, do you happen to have their contact info? Maybe a name or two to get my foot in the door? Maybe you'd put in a good word for old Eli!! You know, the usual.

Eli

My Swiss bank details to be forwarded to you later.

I've been mulling over trying to figure out why anybody might translate 'kai pantwn kai paswn' as 'and each and all'. Come to think of it, there *may* be a practical reason for translating 'kai pantwn kai paswn' or 'i vsiekh i vsya' as 'and each and all'.

The reason *may* be pre-existing musical settings which already have a certain harmonic structure or melody which can only be modified so far before sounding silly.

'kai pantwn kai paswn' is 6 syllables.

'i vsiekh i vsya' is 4 syllables.

'şi pe toţi şi pe toate' is 8, but since Romanian musical settings are very rarely used, they are not hugely influential.

'and each and all' is 4 syllables, a perfect fit for the Slavonic musical settings.

'and all your people' which is also used in some places, is 5 syllables, which is simple enough to tweak both the 6 and 4 syllable melodies to fit. 'and for all your people' similarly is 6 syllables, making it fit the 6 syllable Greek melodies, even if the word-stresses are awkward in relation to the melody (but that doesn't seem to bother many translations from the Greek).

'and for all', which is grammatically the most accurate, happens to be 3 syllables - both the Greek 6 syllable and Slavonic 4 syllable melodies would require very major tweaking to fit 3 syllables.

My guess is that in those places where 'and each and all' is used, musical considerations of beloved Slavonic melodies came before strict accuracy of translation, and a 'close enough' paraphrase was felt to be acceptable.

Since the Sourozh translation was mentioned - I'm now extremely curious, as I sing in that cathedral choir. I'll have a word with Fr Michael Fortunatto, who was maestro di cappella there for a very long time. He might be able to shed some light on the matter!

What does the Ruthenian metropolia's translation have?

Edward, not only does Sourozh have it, they are the only ones to use it, that I've seen. Ruthenians use: "And all your people", but the 1965 translation of 1941/2 liturgikon has "And all men and women". I don't think that that rendering has had any traction among us or elsewhere.

The OCA has "and all mankind" - four syllables. But the Obikhod isn't so grand that anyone would be concerned about making adjustments.

In prostopinije, that's another story. In more recent pew books there is something simple like the tune of "And with your spirit". In the old books (pg 178 Bokshaj), however, the setting is extended and highly melismatic. It has a dozen or so notes and could accommodate any text. I found that it fits beatifully with the prostopinije "Mourn not for Me, O my Mother" for Great Saturday - both sung melody and ison; the simple settings for "And all..." don't work after the Byzantine sound of "Mourn not for me" (same tone as Da molč�t vsj�kaja pl�ť, on this page [grkat.nfo.sk] .

Ooooh the prostopinije sounds lovely.

Sourozh's cathedral doesn't usually use Obikhod for responses and anaphora - they tend to use something like Kastalsky or Kedrov, and these are usually a bit grander. I've usually been there singing Feastdays (where Slavonic is used for the Anaphora) and Vigils, so I've never noticed the 'each and all' used there.

Pavel Ivanovith writes:

Well, if people must be racist, it's nice that they are at least quiet about it!

Fr Serge

Ah now - poor Pavel - he keeps saying he needs a spell check

Language is fascinating.

For many years I did health care research and educational research for Indian tribal councils in both the U.S. and Canada and the real fight was between the use of "Indian" and "Native."

"First Peoples" won out in Canada. "Native Americans" won out in the United States because some American Indians are quite proud of the fact that they were NOT here precisely first.

I also taught ESL for many years and it was and is commonplace to speak of "native speakers" of a language, using native in its proper manner as a form of natal, or the language of the birth mother.

That gets a tad trickier when the mother and father both spoke two different languages and English is not a persons second language but their third, fourth or fifth language. But we all managed to stumble along without anyone labeling anyone as a racist.

I've traveled and lived and worked in Africa and those situations are even more interesting in terms of the language of the colonizer and the language of the colonized. If one is accepted or adopted into a people there is much more latitude for using all kinds of constructions to communicate, but then one must remember to change as the company changes.

In the United States my brown skinned daughter does that quite easily. It is called code shifting.

Be careful when you start trying to teach an old hand about racism.

Eli

Dear Pavel,

You have essentially started a thread which has labeled my behavior as racist by innuendo.

I want a public apology and a retraction.

This Forum is too public for me to tolerate that kind of accusation without some redress.

Eli

OK everyone, let us stand back and take a deep breath!

In reviewing the thread, some how a few things have happened. First, it has got way off topic. The next thing to be noticed is how it has got way off topic, by implications of racism.

In reading the different posts, I do not perceive anyone being a racist here. I do believe that either someone has read into something that is really not there or has taken something said the wrong way. One should know that this issue is unChristian and is not tolerated here on the forum. If in any way I percieved the post to be of a racist nature the post would have been deleted and the poster warned.

I want the issue of racism to be dropped immediately, and all parties concerned that if it is believed to be an issue to contact me via PM. I will address your concerns.

This section from the outset was known to be emotionally volatile due to the nature of the subject it is dedicated to. I do not want such issues introduced that are of the nature of the last 10+ posts again, i.e. accusations of racism. I do also want this matter resolved immediately and if there are any apologies, they are to be posted in Town Hall.

There is a lot of beneficial information and ideas being shed here, let us not cloud it up by these off-topic tangents. If this can not be resolved, then issues will have to be taken into the administrators' hands and dealt with accordingly. Again, as I have stated before, let's stop reading into things that are not there.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Thank you, Father. This is actually quite sufficient as far as I am concerned.

Eli