www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Inconsistency in Translation?

Yes, Father. In fact, IIRC I made that point in the context of the discussion of the Deacon's "Despota" at the beginning of the Liturgy.

Dear Jeff,

You write that you are glad to see the word "Orthodoxy" appear in our books; so am I. But if the approach to that word is going to be incremental, that presumes that there is already a new translation planned after the present new translation.

If we are capable of celebrating the Sunday of Orthodoxy, why can't we pray for all orthodox Christians? If the one is offensive, so would the other, and, conversely, if one is inoffensive, so is the other.

The relevant question is: are/were these parallels really there or is that an artifact or our translation and our distant perspective on the source language? You say that the parallel is between Christ and the Priest. Other learned posters strongly objected to making a parallel with one person of the Trinity. What is the right meaning and theology?

This makes me think of another example: You expressed a dissatifaction with "Holy Gifts to Holy People" preferring the less specific text that was open to broader interpretations. But are they actually there? The Greek and Slavonic or English never fired the neurons for me like the French or German:
"Les Choses Saintes aux saints"
"Das Heilige den Heiligen"
English picked up things from here and there; our talk of "holy" (things) is germanic, but of holy people - saints - is romance. Now I think: food that makes saints. Is this right?

Btw, I checked, and two of the three Bible translations approved for use in the BCC according to FD Lance use "Master" in the canticle, the other, "Lord".

Isn't this obvious. While I don't know if one is already "planned", one is certainly expected. Fr. David has explicitly said this. This is, of course, why incremental progress, tempered with an understanding of where we are, should not be taken as obstacle, but as a path, possibly the surest one, toward our goals. This process allows a gradual, corporate convergence to a "best" practices - which would probably see wide use across jurisdicitions. What are the other alternatives?

Just for a point of clarification, the French according to Diaconie Apostolique, 2000 Editions de Chevetogne, "La Divine Liturgie de Saint Jean Chrysostome" (which is the authoratative French translation for both the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics) reads Aux saints les choses saintes!

As you can see the earlier version was corrected with 2000 translation. The earlier Swiss version has been withdrawn for various reasons including translation inaccuracies.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ Who is fluent and serves in French also.

Just for completeness, here is the link I used.
http://www.pagesorthodoxes.net/liturgie/liturgie.htm
Here's one with the newer version.
http://www.assomptionorient.altervista.org/ortodoxie/la%20divine%20liturgie.htm
The reversed syntax now has the sound of a toast.
Father, do you hear different things when you serve in different languages in which you are fluent?

djs,

I checked the website that you cited, and the liturgy listed is the older rendition. Having served as recently as nine weeks ago both in Paris and throughout Belgium, the edition that I cited above is used almost exclusively with a few holdouts of only a few of the older priests.

I believe as far as the Orthodox in France go, the Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops in France have promulgated the use of only one translation for francophone parishes. When I was about to use the older version one time at Saint Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Paris, the hierarch serving presented me with the newer version and asked that the older one not be used in the future. It is a shame though, for what is not shown on the website that you cited, is that parallel Greek and Slavonic was also provided to cut down on the need for multiple service books.

From what I understand from the fathers at Chevetogne, the same is being done in Eastern Catholic parishes in the francophone parishes throughout the Europe. This is being done for both the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics to cut back on the numerous efforts and difference that existed before this, besides the liturgical and linguistic inaccuracies and abbreviations.

As far as the use of of different renditions, the francophone parishes are less tolerant of variations and were the ones that requested a more accurate translation, culminating with 2000 release.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Well, they are used to being governed by the Academie Francaise. We are not used to being governed at all.

Btw the website referred to a Monastery St. Michel. This is not at Mont St. Michel is it?

AH! If it was only that simple, the need for this forum section would not be necessary.

No, I do not believe that this is the infamous Mont St. Michel Monastery. That monastery is exclusively Benedictine and does not have any Byzantine Chapels there. I have been to Mont St. Michel several times and stayed with the brotherhood there. The order that you gave in your second link is one I am totally unfamiliar with.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Isn't there some famous quote about organized religion? If not, there should be. Sometimes in conversation with people, they will tell me of their problems with organized religion. I reply that I would like to try an organized religion; is there any such thing?

Karl,

The Academie Francaise governs the use of the French language and its application. It has nothing to do with religion, that would be un-French .

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Mon cher Pere Antoine!

Vive le roi chretien!

fraternellement dans le Seigneur Jesus-Christ,

Serge

The site for the second link Fr Anthony was from:

site de la famille des Augustins et des Oblates de l'Assomption

I thought it odd that it mentioned Plovdiv. So I consulted St Google and it is from an Augustinians of the Assumption Byz Catholic site.

Can you find a link to the official, Orthodox version?

djs,

Right now there is no official Orthodox version. The AEOF (the French Orthodox Bishops Council) is using the Chevetogne 2000 edition. I just emailed Chevetogne about why they do not have it online, and my guess is that their response will be the restrictive copyright they have on most of their materials.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+