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Nick,

He can and should when posters are claiming the Metropolia is acting in defiance of Rome, when in fact it is not. Rome does not communicate such things with a private letter but through official correspondence with protocol numbers, which in another thread, Fr. David gave. All said contents may or may not be made public. The new Liturgicon may simply reference the protocol number, as does the current Liturgikon, and none of the correspondence may ever be made public.

Liturgiam Authenticam was given by the Congregation of Divine Worship to the Latin Church. The CDW has no jurisdiction over Eastern Churches. The Congregation for the Oriental Churches has reviewed and approved the new translation. I am sorry the bishops have not disseminated the letters regarding this but they have not, it does not change the fact that the COC approved it.

As to why two Curial Departments seemingly contradict one another is a seperate question, but as referenced earlier,if you can read Slovak get a hold of the Slovak Liturgicon published under Bishop Jan, which also had COC approval and compare it to their current one.

That the COC is approving things you don't care for is, I imagine frustrating. That does not give you license to to accuse the IELC or others of lying about the approval simply because they are not free to disseminate the correspondence which is up to the bishops.

And Steve, my apologies for hijacking the thread. I'll take it to Faith and Worship.

Fr. Deacon Lance


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Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
All said contents may or may not be made public.
Yes, I said that. But it is a fact, that until it is made published, it means nothing. You, and Father David, and anyone else can claim the letter grants approval, but approval only comes with the publication. Until it is published, it means nothing. I heard the letter was full of criticism of the draft.

But I admire your loyalty.

Nick

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"But it is a fact, that until it is made published, it means nothing."

So now, instead of accusing others of lying about the approval, you are simply stating that until published authorization means nothing. Of course that is rather silly because ones needs authorization first then a Liturgikon is published. One doesn't publish first then ask for authorization later unless you are the Canadian Bishop's Conference.

The bishops are under no obligation to make any of the contents of the IELC's and COC's correspondence public and it is likely they will not. As I stated earlier, the new Liturigkon could be published without anything but reference to the protocol number of the document giving authorization, just as the current Liturgikon does. Will you then accuse the hierarchs of lying and publishing the new Liturgikon without approval?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Let's move this converstion to Faith and Worship.


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You're right on that point. (We've been round these arguments before.) The Archbishop doesn't need Rome's approval, and can authorize the revised Liturgy without it.

My point, is that he cannot claim he is doing so "with Rome's approval" unless he publishes the approval letter.

Any edict, rule, law, approval, etc. etc. from Rome takes effect on the day it is published. Until then, it means nothing. That's why I get so tired of "Rome approves". It doesn't.

The Archbishop should publish the letter, if he wants to claim Rome's approval. I think he doesn't want to publish it, because of all the criticisms of the draft that the letter contains.

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I thank Father David for his post.

Quote
Father David wrote:
If not an anti-IELC Crusade, there is definitely an anti-IELC Liturgy translation crusade, seeming for two reasons, either the use of some horizontal inclusive language or the fact that the ordo is not exactly like the 1942 Ruthenian recension.
The fact that the proposed Revised Divine Liturgy is not exactly like the 1942 Ruthenian recension edition is certainly more then enough reason to reject the Revision. The 1942 Sluzhebnik is the Liturgy Book common to all the Churches of the Ruthenian recension. We need to keep this commonality together with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension (Catholic and Orthodox). Changes that are deemed necessary (to correct mistakes in the official Slavonic edition, etc.) should be accomplished by all these Churches working together.

While �Liturgiam Authenticam� is not a document directed to the Eastern Catholic Church it does wisely observe in section 4 that: �The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in its deliberations and decrees assigned a singular importance to the liturgical rites, the ecclesiastical traditions, and the discipline of Christian life proper to those particular Churches, especially of the East, which are distinguished by their venerable antiquity, manifesting in various ways the tradition received through the Fathers from the Apostles. The Council asked that the traditions of each of these particular Churches be preserved whole and intact.�

The Liturgical Instruction (which does apply directly to us) states: �In every effort of liturgical renewal, therefore, the practice of the Orthodox brethren should be taken into account, knowing it, respecting it and distancing from it as little as possible so as not to increase the existing separation, but rather intensifying efforts in view of eventual adaptations, maturing and working together. Thus will be manifested the unity that already subsists in daily receiving the same spiritual nourishment from practicing the same common heritage.� Clearly our Liturgicon should be � if not common to � near identical to those used by the Orthodox Churches of the Ruthenian recension and, as appropriate, to the larger Byzantine Church (Catholic and Orthodox).

Horizontal inclusive language is unwise and unnecessary. But changing �who for us men and for our salvation� to �who for us and our salvation� and �lover of mankind� to �loves us all� are not examples of horizontal inclusive language. They are examples of inaccurate renderings.

Liturgiam Authenticam is quite correct in stating: �When the original text, for example, employs a single term in expressing the interplay between the individual and the universality and unity of the human family or community (such as the Hebrew word 'adam, the Greek anthropos, or the Latin homo), this property of the language of the original text should be maintained in the translation.� (Section 30) �Who for us and our salvation� and �loves us all� simply do not maintain the property of the language of the original text.

Further, in his �Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal� from 2002 Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Est�vez, emeritus prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments was quite clear in stating: ��the above-mentioned tendency to omit the term �men� has effects that are theologically grave. This text ��For us and for our salvation�-no longer clearly refers to the salvation of all, but apparently only that of those who are present. The �us� thereby becomes potentially exclusive rather than inclusive.�

The Latins have experimented with such language and have found it wanting. They are now calling for translation committees to be authentic and faithful to the original texts. Let�s learn from their experience and skip the whole experiment with secular gender neutral language.

Quote
Father David wrote:
Of course, as is obvious, there are parts that are omitted for parochial use. This is not a translation problem but a question of liturgical policy. Even here, I would argue that the proposed format is respectful of the Ruthenian recension and the dicastery that originally promulgated said recension agrees. The IELC is conservative, but it is not literally fundamentalist. The result of this is that those opposed to the proposed IELC translation must resort to a literal adherence to the 1942 Recension/1965 translation in order to block the project.
I agree that the rubrical changes are not a translation problem. They are, however, a change in the Divine Liturgy which we share with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension.

A literal adherence to the 1942 Sluzhebnik is exactly what many Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics (priests and laymen) have been praying for. It was denied to us in past generations and it is sad that attempts are being made to deny it to us today. Father David seems to speak of the 1942 Sluzhebnik as if it were contemptible.

Quote
Father David wrote:
This is then dressed up in the claim that this is alone the tradition, but I would dispute that. There is a deeper tradition. The 1942 recension has now been translated into the vernacular. This puts pressure to restore the presbyteral prayers. I think the greater tradition is to restore these prayers which give the core meaning of the Divine Liturgy, that is, the remembrance of the Lord�s Supper - �Do this in remembrance of me.� The prayers give the theology of Christ�s salvation. The other parts are beautiful and necessary, the peoples hymns of glorification and the deacons petitions for needs - but the Liturgy is still incomplete without the presbyteral prayers. So certainly I can argue - whether you accept the arguments or not is irrelevant - that my position is more authentic and traditional.
If it is commonly believed that the 1942 Sluzhebnik does not reflect a �deeper tradition� the proper response is to address this in the larger Church, at the very least to accomplish change at the Ruthenian recension level.

The translation of the 1942 recension into the vernacular has no bearing on the idea that the presbyteral prayers should be prayed aloud. There is certainly no consensus across the Byzantine Church that such a practice must be mandated as more reflective of a �deeper tradition.� As I have noted numerous times in these discussions, why mandate where liberty will serve? If it is the will of the Spirit that the presbyteral prayers be prayed aloud then give the priests the freedom to pray these prayers either quietly or aloud. Surely the Spirit will lead. If, in a generation or so, the custom has become widespread and accepted across all of Byzantium then it can be documented in the liturgical books as an organic development. In the meantime the Liturgy is certainly not incomplete when the priests follow the traditional custom of praying these prayers quietly. What is this hurry to distance ourselves from even our fellow Churches of the Ruthenian recension?

Quote
Father David wrote:
Personally, I do favor a certain modicum of horizontal inclusivity, for practical reasons - God does save both men and women and we should occasionally say that. One problem is that, in English, �man� and �mankind� can indeed be ambiguous. The Administrator told the story of the little boy and the female baggage �man,� but the story was totally banal unless you admit that there is a certain ambiguity, and then it becomes amusing.
My story may or may not have been a banal but it certainly does show that even a four year old child understands that a �baggage man� can be either a man or a women. Father David�s belief that the liturgy�s many references to God saving men does not really apply to women and needs to be revised to specifically say this suggests that he has bought into the claims of the secular feminists. Certainly replacing �for us men� with �for us� and �mankind� with �us all� introduces ambiguity where there was clarity. We do not have a rush of women and children crying that they are not saved. Even if we did the directives of Rome are clear that the proper response is one of education, not changing the texts.

Quote
Father David wrote:
Finally, the Administrator makes a statement without a shred of supporting evidence - �it does not need to be filtered by any individual�s personal preferences in Liturgy.� I apologize for what I am about to say, but this is simply mud-slinging and nothing else. Forgive me for shouting - THE IELC PROPOSAL IS NOT SOMEONE�S INDIVIDUAL PROJECT. It was initiated by the Archbishop of the Ruthenian Church sui juris, it was carried out by a committee of experts and pastors, it has been accepted by the Council of Hierarchs of the Ruthenian Church sui juris, it has been approved by the Sacred Congregation for Oriental Churches, IT IS NOT SOMEONE�S INDIVIDUAL PROJECT.
Father David is either being modest or disingenuous. He alone is originator of almost all of the rubrical changes. I have no doubt that some were readily received and embraced by the commission while others were accepted only after much persuasion on Father David�s part. I am friendly with several members of the commission and have often discussed the work with them during the past decade in which it was in preparation. It is certainly clear that Father David was and is the leading member of the commission. Father David�s crusade (to use his term) to mandate the priest to pray the presbyteral prayers aloud and to remove litanies predates the current effort to produce a new edition of the Liturgicon. We see this in his years of writing in our eparchial newspapers but most especially in publications like the 1986/1987 edition of the �The Divine Liturgy of Our Father Saint John Chrysostom� published by the Eparchy of Parma and other liturgical books in which he took the lead in preparing. Already in the people�s edition we see some of the Prayers of the Anaphora other presbyteral prayers presented to be taken aloud (if not in specific rubric then in the way the page is arranged). We also see both truncated and missing litanies. Many, many of our clergy and laymen refer to the proposed Revised Liturgy as either the �Petras Liturgy� or the �Petras/Pataki Liturgy�. They do this with great legitimacy.

Father David may rightly claim that in the end there was/is a consensus among the commission members. I do not think he can correctly claim that he was not the original author of many of the changes. Had he not been part of the commission I have no doubt that the commission would have produced a new Liturgicon that would contain minimal updates to the 1964/1965 edition and that there would have been no rubrical changes (I believe that was the original charge from Metropolitan Judson). Of course, Father David is the most talented individual in our Church (with regard to Liturgy) and rightly belongs as the lead on the liturgical commission. I disagree with the direction he wishes to set for our Church regarding Liturgy. But even in intellectual disagreement I recognize and thank him for his work.

I maintain my position that most of the translation work the commission has done is quite good but that it is hiding behind the changed rubrics and inclusive language. It would not be a great effort to produce a new edition of our Liturgicon that is literally faithful to the 1942 Sluzhebnik (even to the detailed level of page layout) while keeping close to a well known and accepted text. If changes to the Ruthenian recension are warranted they should be accomplished together with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension. Prominent Orthodox hierarchs from two different jurisdictions who are part of the Ruthenian recension have publicly spoken of the desire for a common translation. What a witness that would be! Perhaps the time is here for Metropolitan Basil to speak to them about creating a commission to produce these common texts?

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I would not want to change the topic to which translation do you use. I am looking for the approved translation which I figure comes from the liturgical commission itself, and may be known to some Forum users, but not necessarily all. There does not appear to be an established communications link for getting information from the commission itself to cantors for use in parish worship.

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I think the answer is that there is no "approved version" of the Psalter. There are many traditionally used translations of various psalms; the 1963 Grail Psalter is widely used, and has been recommended for years as a common translation. When the Liturgical Commission has completed specific services and given them to the bishops for consideration, they have sometimes retranslated parts of INDIVIDUAL psalms as needed to match the context. Applying this process to the complete Psalter would be a lengthy process - and it is really only needed for the fixed psalms in the services (maybe 20 psalms all told?) and the individual verses used in the prokeimena, etc.

The Metropolitan Cantor Institute has used the recommendations from the Liturgical Commission in its publications when those have been available - for example, for the order of Vespers. But I don't know of any cantors who have access to IELC materials beyond those cases.

I agree that it would be wonderful to have all texts from the Liturgical Commission available in one place (with notes!). Until that day, we will provide what we can via the MCI and its website.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

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Jeff is correct that there is no known official declaration on which edition of the psalms should be used in public worship. Given that our official texts use Biblical texts from the RSV-CE, NAB, Raya�s Psalms from �Byzantine Daily Worship� and the Grail Psalms, all should be suitable. As always, cantors should follow the directive of their pastors.

For the Grail Psalms the 1963 original edition is approved for Catholic worship. Paulist Press reprinted it a few years ago.

See: THE PSALMS: A New Translation From ...nging To The Psalmody Of Joseph Gelineau [paulistpress.com] ($15.95)
ISBN: 0-8091-1669-3
Be careful to get this 1963 edition since there is an inclusive language version that was rejected for use in Catholic worship.

and
Abbey Psalter, The: The Book of Psalms Used by the Trappist Monks of Genesee Abbey [paulistpress.com] ($44.95)
ISBN: 0-8091-0316-8

Note: Both may cheaper at amazon.com.

PS: This thread has indeed gotten off track. I may try over the weekend to separate it into two threads.

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I�m moving this to another thread. You will find my response in �Faith and Worship,� under �Further Liturgical Thoughts

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Re: Grail Psalter

A copy of the 1963 Grail Psalms can be obtained from half.com for $3.12 plus shipping.

This book has very nice meditations on the psalms and uses the LXX-vulgate numbering scheme since the original work was done in the 1950's. The translation, however, is from Hebrew not Greek. The scholarship behind the translation is that of the Jerusalem Bible.

The meter of the Grail psalms is based on the number of stressed syllables per line - much like the nursery rhyme Three Blind Mice. This means it's a little easier to make modifications than would normally be the case for a verse translation.

I use these psalms daily in the Roman Liturgy of the Hours and I like the translation overall. I think it would be a simple matter to divide this book into kathismata and do the psalms according to the scheme of the Byzantine office.

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