www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Will Parishes Embrace the New Liturgy

Chemotherapy is also a kind of toxic poisoning. Often it is a cloud with a silver lining IN THE LONG RUN. Guess we have to wait and see.

Chemo is often a much needed procedure, and used only when it it urgently needed because of all its side effects. What is so urgent about imposing a defective liturgical text? What is so necessary that we are willing to risk the side-effects of such an imposition?

Have we not learned from our Latin brothers & sisters?

Eastern Catholics tend to learn from their Orthodox brethren more than their Latin ones, I figure, because of the stronger commonality.

As to whether there is a necessity for the new book or not, we are way beyond that if Forum posters are correct in their info about requests for book orders throughout 2 eparchies already. Two down, two to go.

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Our fragile church is growing in a few bright spots, but "rusting" away in most areas.

A few strong initiatives have brought forth good grapes, but the vine is still withering away.

Perhaps there is a feeling that something has to be done, so why not roll-out a new Divine Liturgy? Hmm ... why not craft a comprehensive plan for real, authentic renewal.

The sad thing is there are many good people in our parishes with plenty of talents to serve the church. People won't stay below deck on the Titanic forever though. Eventually, folks meander onto the deck to see what all the noise is about. That seems to be what is going on here now.

How sad that we've failed as a people to really be true to ourselves. Make no mistake, we've come a long way as a church.

But those last few steps to Christ are the hardest. We have to trust Him and let the Light of the East shine forth. It is our moment in history. The world needs us now more than ever.

In Christ,

John

John writes:

Tinkering foolishly with the Liturgy is only too easy. Crafting "a comprehensive plan for real, authentic renewal" - let alone carrying it out - is too much like work.

I hasten to add that real work on the Liturgy is not a contradiction in terms - but it is indeed work and requires the qualities and characteristics I've mentioned on other threads.

Fr. Serge

I've been involved in four parishes in the Passaic Eparchy since 1970 (having come over from the RC's in the wake of the Novus Ordo revolution). I have noticed that, when the Bishop is present, after Communion, the cantors or choir will usually sing "For many years master, we have seen the true light"....or "Na mnohaja lita, Vladyko, vidichom svit istynnyj", whereas if it is just a parochial Liturgy, the choir or cantors will sing "we have seen the true light"....or "Vidichom svit istynnyj". This appears to have been a long-standing usage (with some departures, i.e., cantors singing "Na Mnohaja lita, Vladyko, at all times, regardless of the celebrant). I am, by no means an expert on Liturgy, and defer to those who are, but, in my Eparchy, it appears that the use of the term "Master" has been reserved for the Bishop, who is high priest, with the fullness of the role of "alter Christus". Of course, now when the Bishop is present, we are told not to use the term "Master", but "Most Reverend Bishop". IMO, that is unfortunate.

Dn. Robert

There will be a slight pause while I gag at the thought of anyone singing "For many years, Most Reverend Bishop" - the obvious solution is to keep it in Greek (Eis polla eti, Despota), as is the custom in most Orthodox and many Greek-Catholic Churches.

There. Thank you.

Now, a slight punctuation problem reminds me of something. Here's the problem: ""For many years master, we have seen the true light"...." In fact, "For many years, Master!" is an acclamation for the hierarch and stands by itself, but if written with a comma, it appears to modify what follows, so as to mean that "for many years we have seen the true light . . ." I once ran across an MA thesis which attempted to build a theological argument on that inaccurate reading.

Yet another reason to keep "Eis polla eti, Despota" in Greek. Just think of Paschaltide and imagine singing "for many years, Christ is Risen from the dead . . ." !!!

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge,

It would probably be better to just translate it as "Many Years, Master! We have seen the true light...." Less confusion in the minds of the faithful. But, I also like running with "Eis polla eti, Despota". One possible "downside" of that may be the temptation to think in terms of "Despota" being analagous to the English term "Despot".
Dn. Robert

Well, Despota (or more accurately Despotis - Despota is the vocative) is in cold fact the root of the English word Despot, so what can we do? Other than remind people that words do change their meaning over time.

For those who cannot abide the thought of anything but English in this particular case, I would suggest a simple setting of "God grant you Many Years!" - and then a quite different setting of "We have seen the True Light" - different enough to make it absolutely clear that they have no logical connection; they just happen to occur together.

Except in extreme cases, one should avoid singing "Memory Eternal"!!!

Fr Serge

Father Serge bless me a sinner!

How is "Eis polla eti, Despota" pronounced?

Thanks!

Ees (as in "eek")

Poe (as in "hoe")

La (as in "tra-la-la"

et (as in the old-fashioned pronunciation of
"ate" - the past tense of "eat")

tea (some like tea with lemon, some not)

Dhes (the "Dh" sound does not exist in
English. But you know the difference
between "s" and "z". Similarly,
try saying "the" but making an actual
sound - almost like "z" with the "th"
while keeping the tip of your tongue
on the very tip of the front teeth)

poe (almost the same as before, but shorter,
nearly without the vowel sound -
unless the music gives it two notes)

ta (as in "ta - ra - ra boom -!).


The accent in DESpota is on the first syllable. Best to learn this phrase by heart, since it's used almost every time the hierarch gives a blessing.
Hope that helps!

Fr. Serge

There are a lot of people in our parish that are NOT drinking the kool-aid.

Besides the problem of accepting change, there are people who are unaware that the new book is coming down the pike (assuming it actually is). THAT is not good. An official, timely heads-up is a prudent thing to do. (Just call me a champion of the obvious, I guess.)

Jim,

That requires thoughtful leadership and change management. It requires individuals to realize that what may be organic, strategic change to some, is traumatic shock change to others.

Remember we are dealing with a jurisdiction who, at least in one eparchy, refuses to ask for forgiveness for very recently escorting elderly parishioners under armed guard out of a church after announcing the parish closure following services and discarding their memories into a dumpster - all with no warning of what was coming.

Change management is not exactly their speciiiialitee.

Also, without proactively communicating with the people in the pews communications will be reactive. Now, we need a crisis communications plan!