www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Will Parishes Embrace the New Liturgy

This morning during Divine Liturgy, I followed along in the red book (1965/64 Liturgikon).

I noticed that the rubrics say "Master Bless."

Why do the deacons say "Reverend Father give the blessing?"

Seems like we're not even following the existing liturgy we're supposed to be using.

What makes us think that folks will follow a new liturgy, if they we aren't even using the version we're supposed to have been using since 1965.

Exactly! I bet the Hierarchs never attempted to enforce the Red Book...so how do we know it won't fly?

But has it not been said that the deacons have been being formed in the new liturgy for some years now, and is it not the case in the new translation that despota is no longer "Master" but "Reverend Father" so that we no longer get confused between who is Christ and who is that fellow in the long robes at the altar.

Is this not the new way of backing away from the theology of alter Christos, in persona Christi? Is this not yet another example of horizontal inclusive language? Is this not right in line with the growing anti-clericalism and congregationalism that is observable in the Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States?

Are we not, in this way, now, even more as the Orthodox are, yet continuing to be in communion with Rome?

Eli

Check pages 32-33 of my now-famous book, particularly footnote 61.

Fr. Serge

Regarding "Master bless!", many Orthodox groups only say this when a bishop is present, and otherwise say "Father bless!" to a priest other times.

The thread asks "Will parishes embrace the new liturgy?" As with most things concerning the faith, it will be a matter for individual consideration, but I suspect that most people in my own parish will accept it as long as some catechesis takes place- even if it takes place as the new books begin being used!

What will have to be worked around possibly are musical settings that are too difficult for collective use, if there are any . After all, some of the music has been arrived at by compromise, after considering variations in local cantor usage. I have my doubts about how successful such music can be, remembering that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Practically speaking, "Reverend Father" is what I put on the face of an envelope when I am about to mail a letter to some priest or other.

Eli

Father Serge, bless,

Thanks for the reference.

It seems that some BCs don't want to embrace the fullness of our Eastern Christian Carpatho-Rusyn spirituality. Why?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:
Regarding "Master bless!", many Orthodox groups only say this when a bishop is present, and otherwise say "Father bless!" to a priest other times.

Spoken like a true Byzantine. :rolleyes: Using others downfalls to justify ours. I'm sure that we can find one Orthodox church out of 100 to use as an example of why we should have liturgy in under 55 minutes too.

The thread asks "Will parishes embrace the new liturgy?" As with most things concerning the faith, it will be a matter for individual consideration, but I suspect that most people in my own parish will accept it as long as some catechesis takes place- even if it takes place as the new books begin being used!

Will that catechesis explain why the Red Book was never enacted and has been and is being thrown away. Or will that be conviently left out. Oh that's right, we have to be out in under an hour, there's some Orthodox church somewhere that does this so there's the justification.

I guess two wrongs to make a right.

mc

Michael said:

My Mom, who is Roman Catholic, and now attends my Byzantine parish, has on a number of occasions complained about the length of the service. Ironically, our local TV station cut back from 60 minutes of Jeopardy per day to just 30 minutes, and she said she missed that first half hour durng which she was just getting warmed up!

When some of us were told a couple years ago that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts had been revised, we FEARED it had been shortened. I haven't noticed a decline in the number of people in the pews since they added a couple more psalms.

I know that our families are busy, that many travel significant distances to and from church, and most also stay for ECF afterwards. But Sunday was to be a day of REST; there's nothing in the Bible about a day of RECREATION or catching up on the housework, homework, or yardwork.

God has been so generous in his gifts to us, including our time on earth. Why, then, are we so selfish in returning time to him?

Sophia

Lets hope the RC/Protestant pews were empty because they needed some space to do their Byzantine prostrations. I agree with you, some people dont do much in the 7 days of the week and complain about going to Church for an hour or so. Mind you having to wade through bad liturgy and/or boring sermons is very heavy going and is of putting.

Now, Jim, really. There are a lot of people in our parish that are NOT drinking the kool-aid. When will this catechesis take place? During the homily? Instead of the sermon? Before or after liturgy? If it's a separate event, who will really attend this "catechesis"? We have had some wonderful guest speakers & Day(s) of Recollection at our parish, and there have been only about 15 people from our parish present (the rest coming from the surrounding community churches -- RC and sister BC parishes). We KNOW for a fact only a handful of people read the bulletin, so forget that. Maybe an email would work better!

When will this catechesis take place? During the homily? Instead of the sermon? Before or after liturgy? If it's a separate event, who will really attend this "catechesis"?

When is a good question. As far as I know, the ordering of books has not begun in our eparchy or Pittsburgh archeparchy, if posters on the Forum are correct. Does that mean that it is not necessarily a done deal? You tell me.

As to when (or if) within the life of a parish catechesis would take place, don't you think that'll eventually get answered by each priest for his congregation? So far, I haven't seen much to be worried about, but other posters are supposed to be sending me stuff so I can begin to worry.

A series of emails might get to a wider audience than meetings. But, a gradual transition as has been done with traditions, etc. in recent years may be possible, too, depending on how much change is actually coming. Such things as the elimination of some of the congregational amen's during the consecration were done by instruction from the ambon for several Sundays, for example.

As to people not drinking the Kool-Aid, not everyone wants to handle or can handle change at the same rate. I'm hoping that the new book is introduced with as little stress as possible, if it is to be introduced.

---

Jim,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

There will be stress ... there already is.

We're Slavs ... we've been forged in the fire of stress.

There is a tough road ahead for our priests. Those that have come over to the East in the last few years are no fools. They are well read, intellectual and often have large families.

If this new liturgy is rolled-out, our priests will be in a bind. People will walk and will continue to walk. Our poor priests will have to explain this inclusive language business to women who will be insulted.

Still the real question remains on the table unanswered. When will the BCC get on with evangelization and real renewal?

I started writing a response about will parishes embrace the new liturgy, and concluded that the real interest is whether it will be issued or not, and if so when. And so far, nobody has an answer. Nobody.

JohnS wrote: <<Still the real question remains on the table unanswered. When will the BCC get on with evangelization and real renewal?>>

The very fact that this new text in its present deficient form is about to be promulgated is evidence that our BC Church and leaders are not serious about evangelization and real renewal.

The manner in which all this has taken place, with disregard for the thoughts of the clergy and people is proof.

Only fidelity to authentic tradition will help the advancement of our Church.

The matter here is not that people always find change difficult. This might be true, but why should people ever be expected to go along with change that is a departure from authentic tradition? All changes are not good, just because they are changes. Changes could be a sign of life, as in going from infancy, to childhood, adolescense, etc. But toxic poisonings also bring about changes, but for the weakening and the destruction of one's health.