www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Theotokos, Mother of God, Bohorodice

Father Serge:

Forgive me for being just an old English teacher who has battled feminist language for the past 34 years.

This last just sent chills up my spine and ruined my appetite.

For all the beauty of the language that has been the genius of the Byzantine tradition Churches, is this the best the man can come up with?

Makes me remember even more the admonition that my pastor gave me when I was in high school:

"The attention to detail and the reverence that a man brings to his liturgical practice is a direct measure of his faith."

In Christ,

BOB

Dear David,

A very good question, one that I have myself. I do hope soneone is able to answer it for you, I can't.

For me, in public worship, "Mother of God" works very well indeed. I don't see that the use of a greek word (even one as awesome as "Theotokos") is an aid to prayer.

the unworthy,
Elias

David,

The confusion here comes because there are two terms used in our liturgy and the current English translation renders both as "Mother of God." These terms are Theotokos and Metera tou theou. They are NOT synonymous. In fact, Theotokos is a COINED term, i.e. a word created by the fathers to make a theological point that was ratified by the council of Epheseus. The two terms become a short hand for Christ being both fully divine and fully human. Theotokos emphasizes that Mary bears God in her womb while Metera tou theou emphsizes that Jesus if fully human too.

The terms are used in the same sentence to make this very point in the hymn "It is proper and just�" after the consecration. The first phrase calls Mary Theotokos and the second phrase calls her Metera tou theou.

The terms come into Slavonic in a similar fashion as in Greek.

Theotokos � Bohorodice � Godbearer

Metera tou theou - Mati Boze � Mother of God

In Greek Theotokos is not a word but a coined new term. The same is true of Bohorodice in Slavonic. They take the same two words as did the Greek God + Bearer and create the new term. This is why I prefer doing the same in English. Thus every instance of Bohorodice would become Godbearer.

The second phrase is a normal word phrase in both Greek and Slavonic. Thus we see all English translations rendering the phrase Mati Boze as Mother of God.

I believe that our current translation does a disservice by merging the terms. In effect we lose the distinction that exists in both the Greek and Slavonic by translating two different terms using the same English phrase.

Most English Orthodox jurisdictions have elected to use Theotokos transliterated into English instead of coining a new term in English. Bishop Kallistos argues for this approach and dislikes the use of "Godbearer" in particular because he feels this is more appropriate for translation of the term associated with the saints. Thus the choice of the current liturgical commission for Theotokos is logical and consistent with wider usage.

But I do think we lose something by not continuing the tradition of coining a term. Perhaps not a lot, but we definitely don�t have a readily understandable term from the deal.

I hope this answers your original question.

Steve Puluka
Cantor
Holy Ghost Church
Mckees Rocks PA
http://www.puluka.com

Please note: God-bearer = Theophoros, as in Saint Ignatius the God-bearer. Our Liturgy often refers to the God-bearing Fathers, and so on. Nestorius could quite happily have called the Virgin Mary the God-bearer; he refused to call her Theotokos.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge,

Bless Master!

So what is the most accurate translation of "Theotokos"? Not being a linguist, I always accepted that it meant "she who bore God".

Also, can you explain the meaning of "God-bearing"?

Tschau!

Gordon

Birthgiver of God is the correct literal translation of Theotokos. Surprisingly though some who favor literal translation everywhere else oppose it here.

Some argue that it makes Holy Mary sound like a surrogate to our modern English ears but the problem with that arguement is that it can be turned around and said that the title mother does not necessarily imply a women gave birth to child in our modern world. She may well be the legal mother but adopted the child or hired a surrogate herself.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Gordon, dear Father Deacon,

Theotokos means, in the best I can do in English at the second, "she who has given birth to (a) god", while "Birth-Giver of God" implies an ongoing activity - just as "God-bearer" does, even though the two activities are not the same.

"God-bearer" (Theophoros) is predicated of Saint Ignatius of Antioch and certain other important canonized theologians, as well as monastic saints, so this term is "taken", so to speak. It's etymologically related to "Christophoros", but nobody has ever thought of Saint Christopher as having a maternal relationship to Christ!

"Theotokos" is used in Latin as well as in Greek, and is a term well known to theologians for centuries. "Birth-Giver of God" seems to have been coined by Isabel Hapgood.

Fr. Serge

I wanted to post a thought in my thread. First I am approaching this subject from the Byzantine-Rusin Church tradition. I can recall my great aunts and uncles, "Maria" and "Bohoroditsa" this and that. Mary was always referred to as the Bohoroditsa. Why? Because they brought a church infused with an east slavic tradition. It just seems to me that by "returning to the original Greek," my Church is throwing off centuries of wonderful Slavic and Rusin influence. Was everything that came after Kyrill and Methodius flawed? Now I read the Eastern Catholic Life, and it's "Theokotos" everywhere. Thank you.

I believe that Catherine Doherty, of blessed memory, wrote a most edifying book called Bogoroditza, which I do not hesitate to recommend.

Incidentally, "Bohorodice" is one form of the vocative.

Bogoroditsa is simply Theotokos in Church-Slavonic.

Fr. Serge

It is truly amazing how often the vocative case comes up on this forum. Thank God, modern Ukrainian still has the vocative!

That is a good question.

Well, if you would prefer a Latin word or phrase, Deipara or Dei Genetrix are available. But if you know your English, you know already that there are many Greek words which have passed into English. Theotokos is a technical theological term. Try traslating this simple chant into English:

Ave, O Theotokos,
Ave, O Mater Dei,
Ave, Ave, Ave Maria!

Fr. Serge

Why introduce a Greek word into an English translation of a Slavonic liturgy?

I believe that they used the Greek version and only compared it to the Slavonic.

Interesting. So the Ruthenian Church is no longer a Byzantine Slavic Church?