www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Coming to a Location Near You?

Here is a site with a good English translation, while remaining accurate to the original Slavonic.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/liturgy_e.htm


Alexandr

Time for a recap ...

Our married priesthood was attacked in the 1890s ...
Thousands of our people returned to Orthodoxy in the 1890s (now the OCA)
We lost our traditional Pascha in the 1930s ...
We lost our married priesthood in the 1930s ...
Thousands of our people returned to Orthodoxy in the 1930s (ACROD)
We lost several generations of our people 1950-2000

Now, we're abandoning our liturgical theology

What's next?

Do we want to live or die as a Church?

I have been digging into some of the earlier comments made regarding this sad state of affairs. In the Topic "A Discussion with Father David about Reform" https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000051, Father David makes this statement : "The bottom line is this: the work of the Liturgy Commission will bring our Church as a whole to a greater fidelity to its Byzantine tradition. That fidelity cannot be forced, but it can be supported by the good will of the hierarchs, priests and faithful of our Church. I think most will see the reasonableness of what we are doing. Individual Orthodox have seen the reasonableness of what we are doing". These words bothered me. I'm sure Patriarch Sergius must have uttered something quite similar in 1927. How will this bring the Church as a whole to a greater fidelity to it's Byzantine Tradition??? What Byzantine Tradition are we referring to? The back room dealings, political machinations and intriques of the court? Those are precisely the Byzantine Traditions one DOES NOT want to return to. But they are what we are seeing with all of this underground hidden activity and secrecy on the part of the renovationists. There is a Russian saying which translates as "your words stand on their heads". What I am reading here is (Translation mine) "We will return to our tradition by destroying it. Don't question what we are doing because we know better than you. Anyone who disagrees with us being unreasonable". Am I the only one who sees this?

Alexandr

Got it Batyshka! Thank you very much!
Alexandr

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Professor J. Michael Thompson:
This is not the Divine Liturgy as it will be published by the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA [/QUOTE

His keyboard must have quit...I'll post again after I get home from the OCA Liturgy tomorrow.

Thousands of our people returned to Orthodoxy in the 1890s (now the OCA)

Well, not exactly. They converted to Orthodoxy. It was several generations earlier that you could say someone returned to Orthodoxy outright. After all, the split between eastern catholics and the orthodox further east happened much further back than the 1890s.

If there had been different ground rules in places when they came to America, such as total acceptance of eastern catholics in the fullness of their traditions, things might have worked out differently. Also, the introduction of Orthodox jurisdictions in the west might have been considered a questionable practice if what the Moscow patriarch has to say about territorial rights had been in place then. But since neither territorial rights nor acceptance of traditions took place, things are fragmented. Most eastern catholics who convert to Orthodox also lose some of their ethnic heritage at church when they do so, such as prostopinije chant, which except for ACROD, is not in use elsewhere. Certain feasts are also not observed, depending on jurisdiction, too.

What to me is unfortunate (and perhaps the most telling) is that much evading has been done of the central question, which was posited by many of us years ago at the beginning of the process.

That question is "why"?. Why are the Ordo and the Liturgikon now deficient and if so, specifically in what ways?

Those revising and promoting the revision(ism) have had ample opportunity to address the central question from a specific liturgiological and catechetical viewpoint - and they have completely evaded this central and most logical means of making their case.

It appears they either will not or cannot address the essential question. Until that is done, many of us (and I certainly include myself in that category) will not be favorably disposed to this New Liturgy (considering we haven't seen it yet).
FDD

I agree with Diak. Whenever we have asked "Why?" we have never gotten an answer. I have asked Fr. David many times on this forum, directly: "Why cut the antiphon verses from three to one?" The answer is never given. If any answer is given, it consists of an assertion that we as a Church have the authority to do it. We ask "why should we?" and get "because we can."

That is most frustrating. There is _zero_ demonstration of any pastoral or theological need for the changes. Leave aside the "inclusive" language; take this example: why is "Holy gifts to holy people" a better translation than "Holy things to the holy?" Why make a cumbersome change? What's wrong with the original translation?

If there was pressing pastoral and theological need for the new translation, surely someone would be able to explain it. Since no one has, I conclude that there is no pastoral or theological need.

It's never too late to do the right thing. I pray the bishops will stop this, since I believe it will gravely harm our Church.

If the books have already been printed, I'll gladly donate money to cover the sunk costs.

If the clergy and laity got together and demanded a diocesan council, could these questions not be put directly to the hierarchs? One merely has to look at the sad situation occuring in the OCA to see how the clergy and laity are holding their hierarchy accountable. I am sure that the BC bishops are monitoring these discussions. So, OK, I'll take the plunge.

Dear Vladiki Basil, Andrew, John, and William.
Kissing your hand(s),

In light of the ongoing concern and confusion that has been made manifest amongst the pious faithful in regards to proposed changes to the Divine Liturgy, can you, as shepherds of your flock tell us why these changes are occuring? The silence has caused discension, confusion and spiritual chaos. Please Vladiki, don't let this turn into yet another schism. All the faithful are asking for are answers as to why, but are only getting evasive answers to their questions.


Alexandr

Brat' Alexandr - before your welcome arrival I was once threatened to be written up to my bishop on this very forum for (gasp) suggesting one follows the Typikon when in doubt - in this case when a particular "official" service book did not include all of the texts consistent with the corresponding Greek Catholic "official" Typikon.

Welcome to the club - hope you enjoyed the initiation.
FDD

Alexandr,

It isn't usually my wont to post on the "new Liturgy", chiefly because altho it is also "my Liturgy" that is being dealt with - it is not "my Church" which is doing so, and I have hesitated to be labeled as an interloper. My apologies for my own lack of courage in this regard and my apologies to you for the unmitigated gall of one of my fellow Catholics, of whatever ilk to remonstrate with you for voicing an opinion on a forum which has always been noted as a place for Catholics and Orthodox to communicate.

I remember well the instance of which my dear friend and brother, Deacon Randy, speaks and my own absolute outrage at the time he was so threatened. The only positive aspect I can tie to that event was that the individual who did so at least had the honesty to post his comment on the open forum, unlike the person who PMed you.

Keep voicing your opinions - perhaps some power-that-be will read them and understand the caring for the Liturgy which they reflect, rather than focusing on the communion from which the poster originates - something of considerably less import in almost all instances than the truth associated with them.

Many years,

Neil

Just to add to Deacon Randy's and Neil's post, I know this is a very emotional subject, but any poster that feels that by using the PM system it will exempt them from the rules of the forum is sadly mistaken. Any one that does so will be under review to have their posting priviledges permanently terminated. This is not the first time that this has come to light, and before it becomes excessive I wanted all to be aware of it. Abuses of the PM system are also to be reported to a moderator.

With that said, I hope that we can get this back on topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I apologize for not returning to this issue earlier; one of my sons developed double pneuomia last Wednesday, and I had to spend a lot of time taking care of him since then (and also missed Saturday's cantor school - which event, plus two parishes to cover, and helping the Antiochean parish prepare for their bishop's visitation, plus attending the following loleben and banquet, likely explaining Professor Thompson's not immediately answering the queries on Friday night and Saturday).

Again - there is no OLD VERSION of the music. There are many - and many parishes that need assistance with the chant, or even recite liturgies, as well as newcomers who find Divine Liturgy and feast-day Vespers/Matins books with no music at all. Metropolitan Judson was insistent that our books needed to have music. Again, there are MANY different standards. Specifically, JJ, what are you complaining about in the small set of melodies in this samizdat publication from last year?

Oh, and as far as the proposed text, in any form, "striking out" from the initial deacon's request for a blessing:

(a) Could you provide a pointer to an Orthodox commentary that demonstrates that the "link to the bishop" is intentional and widely known, rather than a conclusion you have reached on your own?

(b) You do realize that virtually every Orthodox jurisdiction has amplified the deacon's texts in English? "Peace to you who readest" for "Mir vsim" after the Epistle - and at the END of the Liturgy, for "Blahoslovi!"...

OCA: "Father, bless" or "Father, bless us"
Old Calendar Greeks: "Holy Father, bless us"
ACROD: "Father, bless us"
etc.

Obviously it is not impossible to ask "Father" for a blessing.

More on the latter another time, have to attend to things at home.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Hmm, I was interrupted during the last writing and omitted a couple of paragraphs accidentally.

The text referred to at the top of this thread was NOT the one used at the Cantor Institute last month. Case in point: the text used last month contained the Litany of Supplication, and did NOT use the phrase "our bishop N., whom God loves" which was changed back to "our God-loving bishop N'" last year - as noted on this forum.

From the internal evidence, the linked text was done sometime last year, possibly for a special event. It omits quite a bit of text and music that is in all the materials used and taught at the MCI. Simply stating it "is the revised Liturgy" would have raised far more questions than did my original explanation above!

No one I have talked to knows where this text came from, so accusing anyone of being "crafty" in this case tends toward the uncharitable. It was NOT the one used at the MCI all last year, or at the start of this year. It does use a good bit of the changed texts, notwithstanding the material it omits, so the "new stuff" here is the music - again, it also omits much of the music from the new text.

So, Java Joe: where exactly DOES the new music emphasize "the" over "Jesus" (I think that was your original claim)? Examples please? Or any other particular cases where you can tell us how a particular text ought to be set and sung?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

By the way, in my last post but one, "Mir ti" not "Mir vsim", I think; either "Peace to you who read" (local OCA parish) or "Peace to thou that readest" (local Synod parish), etc.; I would much rather reply when I've had some sleep but people here seemed very impatient this weekend.

Jeff,

Apparently you need to go back and read the previous posts. Not only has this been attested to be the liturgy but several have verified that this as fact. Where you there at the MCI that you can refute and question the veracity of the other posters?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator