www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Coming to a Location Near You?

Actually, when they opened Alexei Toth's tomb at his OCA glorification service, his body wasn't there, but that of Abp. John Ireland was! So, if you want to see him spin in his grave, you'll have to come to this part of the world, and visit St. Tikhon's monastery!

Dn. Robert

I've got to say that I am at a loss as to that explanation.

Dn. Robert

As am I. Could you please identify the post on this forum where he said that?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Of course, or I wouldn't have asked. (If I recall, Steve Petach asked as well.) I have been doing the same for three years, and passing comments on to members of the IEMC. Unfortunately, in three years, only two posters here have taken me up on it; both have had suggestions incorporated in the proposed revisions.

For that matter, look at this thread from a year ago: New Music

I can't speak to your experiences, but I know I've spent many a Friday night up in the Seminary library, looking over translation issues and musical settings from all quarters with whoever happened to be present - certainly John's name came up as a datum, but there was no particular animus on anyone's part that I saw. *shrug*

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. I grew up in rural West Virginia, raised three children there, taught school for ten years, served as cantor for another ten years, and when we moved out of state to try and establish a Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox farming community, we left 120 acres of farmland - originally abandoned strip mine - that I reclaimed with hand tools and sweat. God willing I'll be back there within five years. But regardless, I am, and always will be, a Mountaineer.

Jeff,

Here goes!

I suggest that the bishops abandon all of the music prepared by IELC / MCI / Thompson / Mierzejewski and continue with the music we have been using for the past 40 years.

I suggest that those who support the Revisions make a case for each change to the text and the music for the entire forum community to comment upon.

I suggest that the Revisionists stop approaching the common settings as if they are flawed and should not be a basis for the future.

I suggest that the Revisionists stop approaching their settings as if they must be accepted until proven defective.

Please forward these specific suggestions to those in charge. I know I also speak for my pastor on this.

Java Joe

You know, 40 years is not THAT long a time.

Dear Java Joe,

You should apologize. Your last comments to Thompson and Jeff are not good. The question is the music.

I would like to see some specifics from you about what you don't like in the music. Take the Vespers or Matins books, if you like, available from the MCI website. Give an example. Your demand that MCI justify every note of every setting is unreasonable. You've got the problem, so tell us what the problem is. Maybe I'll agree with you. But make your case.

Java Joe, there are several posters here who have asked for specifics from you, but you aren't giving any. That's too bad. Instead you choose to speak in blanket generalizations. Get specific, because if you don't, you cannot make a difference.

Excuses and pointing fingers at the Orthodox and other sui juris churches using the Byzantine Rite does not fully address the issue.
As stated before at the first MCI session in 2006, a mere almost three weeks ago, I have on strong authority that the liturgy was INDEED PROFESSIONALLY TAPED FOR DISTRIBUTION TO PARISHES FOR INSTRUCTIONAL PURPOSES.

Dear Java Joe,

I fear somehow that what you asked if I really wanted, and what you offer in your latest post, have nothing in common.

Yes, I WOULD like you to either send me a marked-up copy with specific objections to the music in the linked text, and your recommended setting, or provide similar detailed objections here. "I don't like it" or "Use the old version" is not a specific objection.

There IS no common setting for the Divine Liturgy - as noted above, there are MANY.

The MCI and I personally have made no determinations on the proposed music; those decisions were made by the IEMC. Furthermore, if you suggest that the bishops disown the settings of the Metropolitan Cantor Institute, we also get to throw away the ONLY complete service book with music for Sunday Matins in English ; service books for Vespers throughout the year; and other materials, as well as a 12-volume Menaion. THOSE were the work of the MCI.

Back in 1995, I asked Jerry Jumba why, in 20 volumes of music, he had hardly anything for Vespers and Matins. He replied that he had chosen to ignore those services, except for certain feasts, because (a) there were no official texts, and (b) every cantor had his own way of setting the melodies, and no one would use someone else's melodies. He called this "musical anarchy."

That year, we started the CANTOR-L project, including several cantors from every Byzantine Catholic eparchy, plus a number of Ukrainian and ACROD cantors, plus the cantor from Holy Resurrection Monastery, and several noted Eastern chant scholars. The PRIMARY concern was to help re-establish Matins and Vespers in ordinary parishes, and the primary initial goals were (a) to attempt to arrive at common texts for these services, and to obtain the bishops' blessing for them, and (b) to produce complete, reliable texts with music, to replace the many fragmentary collectons scattered about.

In 1998, a cantor school had been reestablished at the seminary in Pittsburgh, whose teachers (NOT including Professor Thompson at that point) were explaining the deficiencies and inaccuracies in the various current musical settings, providing new music, and telling us that further changes and adaptations would likely occur in the future.

By 1999, we had a set of Sunday canons of Matins, with texts from the Uniontown books stripped of neologisms like "humankind", set with proper English accents to the Bokshai prostopinije. That Christmas, we received the blessing of BOTH Metropolitan Judson of Pittsburgh and Bishop Nicholas of Johnstown, allowing those musical settings to be sung in their respective seminaries.

By 2004 we had books for Vespers and Matins, available at cost to any parish that wanted them, and with propers for each Sunday and feast day provided free of charge. Quite a number are using them now. We used wherever possible the texts from the Liturgical Commission, as Metropolitan Judson had asked when we started.

Now... back to the musical settings for the Divine Liturgy. (Since my request involved music, NOT text, I would like to defer that to another conversation and different interlocuters).

I asked you to provide specific examples of specific phrases you had problems with, and how you would prefer them to be set. Please realize there are quite a few different settings to choose from, and only a few can go into any standard collection of chant. You claimed that the new settings had bad accents and inappropriate emphases; point them out and let's discuss them.

You can, as you suggested, send me a marked up copy of the linked text at the top of this thread (or any publication from the MCI website [metropolitancantorinstitute.org] for which you have suggestions as to musical settings) through the mail; or send email to me at ByzKat@stny.rr.com; or list specific musical issues here or in the Kliros forum.

May God watch over you!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Jeff writes:

Not quite. To the best of my limited knowledge, the first complete music book for Sunday "Matins" in English was produced by Michael Hilko almost fifty years ago - I'm still using it. The translation is that of Archimandrite Lazarus. Michael Hilko was an excellent, highly qualified musicologist and a Carpatho-Russian into the bargain.

If "complete Menaion" honestly means a complete Menaion, by all means do not throw it away. In fact, please send me a copy. If, however, it means something highly abbreviated, don't bother. At the moment I'm aware of two editions of the complete Menaion available in English - that of the St. John of Kronstadt Press (translated from Church-Slavonic) and that of Holy Transfiguration Monastery (translated from Greek). An incomplete Menaion has been making the rounds for the last dozen years or so; it's translated from the unoriginal French and cannot honestly be recommended.

And so forth.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge, your blessing!

Does it use the prostopinije melodies? If this is the case, I REALLY wish you had informed me of its existence back in 1998 when at your request I sent you a set of Sunday canons for review! What music does it use for the Gospel stichera (since the southwest chant melodies we have for these are exceedingly melismatic)? And could you kindly provide me with bibliographic information so that I might look for a copy?

I don't believe I said a "complete" menaion; what we have is a set of monthly volumes for the Divine Liturgy, including the appointed troparia, kontakia, prokeimena, alleluia and Communion hymn(s) for each day, including pre- and post-festal hymns, all with music written out, as well as a short synaxarion entry for each saint. We are expanding it over time to include all materials for Vespers and (more slowly) Matins.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Jim,

It is up to those of you attempting to force change to justify it.

You and other Revisionists have been asked many times to explain why the current English settings for the Divine Liturgy are now unacceptable. You and the others have not answered. You keep changing the subject. That�s too bad. Get specific. If you don�t there is no reason to consider the changes you are pushing.

Java Joe

So your objection to the new settings is not that they're "awful" in any PARTICULAR way, but just that they're different?

I have never believed the old settings were "bad"; most either "dumbed down" our traditional Carpathian melodies (the melodies we STILL use when singing Slavonic, so many people do know them!), or follow those melodies without regard for the English accent ("counting syllables back" to find the cadence, for example). Some settings lack any consistent use of their melodic material, while others have odd breaks in the middle of phrases (for example: why does one setting of the Creed have us sing, "and became man. *pause* Without change you were also crucified...") In some cases, a harmony has become the melody; in others, a mistake made in selecting a tone has become "the way we sing this."

Net result: whether texts were changed or not, when we finally had the possibility of a complete "English Sbornik" with music, SOMEONE (in this case several someones) had to choose which version of each melody would go into the collection. The alternative is to spend another 40 years with loose paper all over the cantor stand.

So once more - you said the music was more than "awful". What particular phrases are you referring to? Or do you just want the IEMC to use whichever setting YOU are used to, and to heck with anyone who is currently using another setting?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. Just to be clear: establishing common melodies will ALWAYS involve at least some change on most people's part. I am offering to discuss any particular musical setting you care to, and explain the reasoning behind it if possible. Short of that, my only option is to line up in parallel:

The Slavonic sources:
Bokshai
Papp (Presov melodies)
Ratsin (American adaptations)
Sokol (different American adaptations)
Galician melodies which we used alongside prostopinije


The English sources
scattered "early" sources
the 1964 music
Byzantine Liturgical chant (1970)
Pittburgh Cantor's School (1980's)
Jerry Jumba's music based on same
Monsignor Levkulic's various different settings
early John Vernoski
late John Vernoski
materials from the Seminary
Carpatho-Russian Orthodox service books (old and new)
Carpatho-Russian Orthodox loose-leaf material
four sets of "parish adaptations of Bokshai" (that I have, anyway)

and justify every melody the IEMC chose as a good selection based on all of the above. (Realize I had no involvement with the IEMC work other than to use the results, and occasionally to pass on specific suggections I received; but in most cases the IEMC choices were ones I can easily defend.) Remember that EVERY ONE of those collections listed above has music some parishes are still using! So you have to tell me what you think is "awful" and why, and THEN we can discuss it.

It is up to those of you attempting to force change to justify it.

I disagree. It is not necessarily up anyone to justify changes to you NOW. Instead, you need to "Seek first to understand, then to be understood". If the time is right, the new people's book will be released, and then you will get your opportunity to review it, and inquire of your local priest about it. It won't be on your timetable or mine.

You and other Revisionists have been asked many times to explain why the current English settings for the Divine Liturgy are now unacceptable. You and the others have not answered. You keep changing the subject. That�s too bad. Get specific. If you don�t there is no reason to consider the changes you are pushing.

Java Joe, you'll just have to wait for the book, then ask your specific questions. You'll get no definitve answers until the book is finally released.