www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I have never.... (A discussion regarding BCA and Orthodox practice and behavior

Sometimes I read these threads and it just makes me angry.

I know it's none of my concern but I cannot help it. That's why I usually stay away from this forum these days.

The BC needs to revise it's patron to "Our Lady of Sorrows"

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Is it a vesperal liturgy like the Antiochians which appends part of vespers to the liturgy itself?

Also, would it actually start at 5 pm (potentially before sunset) and then people would not actually go on Sunday?



Andrew

The BC Vesper-Liturgy on Saturdays starts at 5 p.m. here in Phoenix, and generally that is usually before sunset.

The liturgy begins with the vesper portion. The lights are dimmed until we sign "O Joyful Light." The prayers include several psalms and stichera, litany, prokeimenon, and if called for in our typicon, one or more Old Testament readings. Divine Liturgy picks up at Holy God, Holy & Mighty.

We also have Vesper-Liturgy on the vigil of solemn feast days starting at 7 p.m. so that people who work can attend. Of course, that can be before sunset in mid-summer as well.

Sophia

There are some churches that do Vespers appended with Liturgy (which I'm not fond of but that's a another topic).

But there are others that do only Liturgy and yes it starts at 5pm which this Saturday July 29th will be before sunset and this is supposed to fulfill Sunday obligations.

Monomakh

When did this practice begin? (serious question, not rhetorical)

Was it before the 1900s or during the 1900s or way back a few hundred years. I would assume last century, but I really don't know.

Monomakh

To my knowledge in Orthodoxy the Antiochians are the only ones who do it. I think a lot of people regard it as an unwarranted deviation from the Typicon. The Antiochians feel it's a reasonable accomodation for people who would not be able to attend feast day liturgies otherwise (they only do them on feast day evenings, it's not a weekly thing). I can actually see that both sides have valid points.

Otherwise the Antiochian parishes I know of keep the same routine. Vespers on Saturday, Orthros and Liturgy on Sunday.

Andrew

Need to be careful here. The sundown to sundown rule was set in a place where the sun seeming -popped- up between 5am and 6am,k depending, and -popped- back down between the same hours in the evening. There are no four hour lingering twilights in those places so the rule made sense expressed as it was.

The Church, understanding the spirit of that rule, has made temporal accomodations for peoples who live in different latitudes where the movements of sun and planets do not cooperate with the laws of man.

Now we all know what happens when accommodations are made to the spirit of the law, but Christ had a great deal to say about that while he was here and we ought to listen to it now an then and apply it to ourselves and not to others, first.

So IF there is to be a Vigil Mass that fulfills a Sunday obligation at all, let it be when the Church says it may be to fulfill that obligation, in the spirit and in the letter of the law.

Eli

The only party that needs to be careful here is the BCA. Pure (or any other word you want to use to mean not appended with Liturgy) Vespers should be performed on Saturday evening. If that occurs a little before sundown then so as to not split hairs, fine. But Sunday Liturgy should be on Sunday morning after Matins. Not cobbled together in some quasi hybrid with Vespers and not on Saturday evening. the vast majority of Orthodox jurisdictions are able to understand this, but for some reason we can't.

Monomakh

Re: kobluks and the hierarchs on the UGCC in the US

• Metropolitan Stephan of Philedelphia wears a white kobluk (including at the funeral of JP2)
• Archbishop Stephan (Sulyk) of Philadelphia (retired) has worn a kobluk, IIRC, but not regularly
• Bishop Ivan of Philadelphia - I don't know
• Bishop Volodymyr of Philadelphia (retired) - I've never seen him in one and he has not come across as the type who would wear one
• Bishop Basil of Stamford (retired) wears a purple (only he knows why) kobluk
• Bishop Paul of Stamford does not wear one (unless he's recently been converted)
• Bishop Richard of Chicago has worn one (at his enthronement), not sure about current practice
• Bishop Innocent of Chicago (retired) - I don't know
• Bishop Robert of Parma wears a kobluk

Can anyone fill in the blanks?

Apart from war-time in Europe and other emergency situations, celebration of the Eucharist in the evening began in the nineteen-fifties. At first permission had to be obtained for each such occasion. But over about a decade, the permission became general.

Then came Vatican II and a sort of back-door authorization to have these "Vigil Masses" on the vigils of Holy Days and then on Saturday nights to take care of the Sunday obligation. This has deteriorated so far that I've actually heard priests refer to "the week-end Mass" ["Remember the week-end, to keep it holy?" That's not in my Bible!]

This quickly morphed from a pastoral outreach to those who really could not come in the morning to a "Mass of convenience"; in many parishes, the Saturday night Mass is the best attended of all the "Sunday" celebrations - those who wish to do their shopping ahead of time often come into church carrying all their purchases, and those who wish to go "out" later often come into the same church for the same Mass dressed like - well, I had better not say what.

If anything, it has become worse among Eastern Catholics, because of the shortage of clergy. This nonsense is thoroughly destructive, both of the awareness of Sunday and of the services of Vespers and Orthros. It's ironic: we're back to the Middle Ages and the "Massing-Priest" who seems to do almost nothing else.

Fr. Serge

Your post brought another similar subject to mind. On new calendar, this past week saw the feast of St. Elias. The feast was celebrated on Thursday (Wednesday evening at some parishes). At some parishes cars were blessed that night. However at some cars were not blessed that day but only on the following Sunday. To me, and I'd interested to hear from others, it seems to cheapen the feast day and make it so that it's not a big deal to miss because you're not missing anything and come Sunday you can get your car blessed. I think that if the blessing was done only on the feast day it may be better attended. It does not good to sit and wonder why feast days are not attended well when practices like the above are commonplace.

Monomakh

I'm getting off on a tangent, but this has sparked my curiosity. I ran across a BCC that has this schedule:

SUNDAY DIVINE LITURGIES
Fall-Winter Schedule: September 01 - May 31

Vigil (Saturday)
5:00 P.M.
Sunday
10:00 A.M.

Spring-Summer Schedule: June 1 - August 30

Vigil (Saturday)
5:00 P.M.
Sunday
10:00 A.M. (remains the same in 2006)


HOLY DAY DIVINE LITURGIES
Vigil (Preceding Evening)
7:00 P.M.
Feast Day
9:00 A.M.

Aside from the idea of a regular Saturday liturgy which I find odd (and I don't see mention of vespers or matins), the holy day schedule seems strange. Is the liturgy on the forefeast day the same as on the feast day itself? How is a celebration occurring at 7 p.m. and then at 9 a.m. handled? Is the antimension changed?

Lastly, exactly what is a "day of obligation"? I haven't heard that term used in church.

Andrew

You're correct to find it odd. This is how myself and many others sit and wonder what is going on. I can't speak for the original poster, but he is correct (although I don't know the exact percentage) in saying that the overwhelming majority of Byzantine Catholic Churches do NOT, I repeat, do NOT do Matins, and/or do NOT do straight, pure, whatever Vespers. If Vespers is done it is cobbled together with Liturgy on a Saturday and is supposed to count for Sunday. There are a few that do Vespers, Matins, and Liturgy on Sunday, but they are few and far between.

Monomakh

So you would do away with Vigil masses completely? Or is there a way to accommodate people in real need while minimizing abuses?

Eli

to clarify my last post. Vespers, Matins, and Liturgy on Sunday meant

Vespers on Saturday evening
Matins Sunday morning
Lturgy Sunday morning following Matins

I don't know what parish you got the schedule from, but I'd be willing to bet that the same liturgy is done on the eve of the feast and on the feast. I'm guessing, but that's what I would think.

Monomakh