www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I have never.... (A discussion regarding BCA and Orthodox practice and behavior

Dear Monomakh,

(Did you know that Vladimir Monomakh has been glorified an Orthodox Saint?)

This is something that is similar to the UGCC situation.

There are those, like myself, who use the term "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

But there are many parishes who would not care for this title, would find it offensive and even "inclining toward schism" and who would probably beat me and others over the calves and ankles for even invoking it.

The question is, how "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is the Byzantine Catholic Church in America today?

To what extent does the new liturgy actually reflect (and I'm NOT saying it does) the spiritual world-view of the "majority" - however one defines that difficult term.

I'm not saying, I'm asking.

In the UGCC, it is different. It is assumed that the liturgical prayer will be somewhat different between EC's and Orthodox. Our sense of "spiritual unity" derives from sharing a common cultural identity and OVERALL Eastern spirituality.

And, in both cases, EC and Orthodox, "Over-Byzantinization" is viewed with suspicion as "Russification."

It would seem that since the Byzantine Catholic Church has been divested of the matter of ethnocultural identity, its liturgical tradition is the heart of the identity of the people.

Comments, before I get myself into deep trouble in one way or another here?

Alex

It is curious that you would come to this particular topic and make this particular comment.
Are you suggesting that for the Ukranian people the liturgy is not the heart of the identity of the people?

Eli

Orthodox Catholic wrote:

The question is, how "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is the Byzantine Catholic Church in America today?


Not very much at all unfortunately.


It if I follow your post correctly, it is true that the Byzantine Catholic Church has stripped itself pretty much of its ethnic identity. Which I think is fine, but that's not the issue. The issue is that litrugical tradition should be the focus and we are a long way from being there as a church sadly.

Monomakh

ps I happen to be a Ukrainian who is a cradle Byzantine. The real Vladimir Monomakh is an interesting read and person.

Huh!

I think the effort has been made from time to time but I can think of dozens of dozens of faces whose jaws are dropped at the very thought. You might want to send out flyers, here and in Europe, because I don't think they've quite got the message.

Eli

You know in general we are less ethnick than many Byzantines...we are kind of like the Byzantine Catholic Church of America. That was a smart move by our Hierarchs from long ago

However, sadly I still hear parishioners ask newcomers "what is your last name" or "what is your nationality." If they only knew what they were doing to their church with those comments and how small we appear at those moments. At those times I often want to ask what they have done to help populate our church with 100% Slavs, when they themselves have a non-Slavic last name. As if Slavic=Byzantine...

These comments really make ya wonder...

Somewhere there is a seriously knowledgeable and loving middle ground between ethnic cleansing and phyletism. And as my old da always said, "If you can't beat 'em, take 'em out for cabbage and beer!!"

Why would you try to get rid of those who built your Church, who gave it their own particular vitality, their own sweat and tears, birth and death, their own language and history and the language and history of their ancestors? Let them examine you like a fish in a bowl. I did. Then they threw me out!! :p

Nah! They had me in for tomato soup and butter crackers and a coke!

Eli

I for one miss the ethnic part of our church. We've shed almost all of it to be more American and opening to others, but there are no others! My parish has about 50 people and 75% are over 60. We could have an all Slavonic liturgy and almost everybody would understand!

If we shed our ethnicity we might as well shed the Byzantine rite!!!

Many went mainstream ages ago.

Why "shed" the ethnic things of your community? Why not simply include others along with them? Is there a need to EXCLUDE in order to be Byzantine? Not to my mind.

Staro

I suppose thats the difference between an ethnic chaplaincy and the establishment of diocese of a particular Rite.

I would not want any group to shed what makes them them. If that makes sense.

At this rate most particular Churches are chaplaincies.

At least the Uke's are Uke's and they know it. The last Ukie Liturgy I attended was 90 minutes, all Ukie(sermon included), and was very beautiful. They've kept what we lost.

The problem is though, too many people think it's their own private club, and they become clannish. How do you keep the ethnicity without becoming a clan? A few people I know think being Byzantine means belonging to a certain ethnic group. We have to shed that belief if we are to continue. I hope we can do both.

My darling wife (adult convert to Orthodoxy) looked into a local Orthodox parish and was asked, point blank: "Why are you here? You're not one of our people."

Being clannish is a trait of our church. Not saying it's good or bad but it's been that way "now and ever and forever" Don't see it changing anytime soon...