www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I have never.... (A discussion regarding BCA and Orthodox practice and behavior

Jeff,

Actually that has happened quite a bit. Less so in recent times. Twenty years ago it was quite common, but now-a-days I seldomly encounter it. Even in a place like the Greek Archdiocese, it is becoming more common to encounter converts and convert clergy.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ (Xeno Priestmonk )

I agree with Fr. Anthony the 'xeno' priestmonk.

That kind of mentality shouldn't be so common anymore, as we have many converts to our various Orthodox Churches, both in the clergy and in the laity.

I am wondering if the person that told her that was a priest or someone working in the office.



I ask because I know from personal experience that some of those church secretaries are even turn offs to us cradle Orthodox! Some of them can be downright unfriendly, and that is really a shame.

In Christ,
Alice

I would honestly ask you to step back and consider your first sentence in order to see if that is truly an accurate perception.

The Ruthenian recension does not exist with the history of a people who identify themselves as Ruthenian. You take that away or give it a back seat, experientially, and you will have something entirely different from what drew you in the first place.

You make second class ecclisiastical citizens of people in North America and in Europe who call themselves Ruthenians, and you will materially destroy the Ruthenian recension.

Every parish takes on a particular cast based upon the ethnic composition of its members. That is fine. I grew up in a Latin rite parish that was predominantly Russian and Italian, ethnically

I am a Gael in greatest part and so I had to find something that would allow me to feel at home. I found it among the Russians. My father found home with the Italian members. My mother was a convert to the Catholic Church and she became a cantor and schmoozed her way with everybody. But we all attached ourselves someplace, and eventually began to represent something of our own, to which others became attatched by extension.

You loose that anthropology and a whole parish looses its moorings in community. You take it out of an entire particular Church, and that Church will die.

Never in the Latin rite was there ever a conscious program to destroy the core ethnic groups in this country. They are still there, in organic relationship, one with another.

In the places where there's been a natural or organic expurgation of any clearly identifiable cluster of ethnicities, there is a constant battle to find grounds upon which to forge community.

Once those parishes exceed 3500 families there is no hope for anything but discrete cults, primarily based on age, children, work or some other utilitarian function. They are not spiritually healthy parishes and they know it, and constantly struggle to try and change that basic fact of their demography and geography.

You may get what you wish for but it will not be the Church that brought you home.

Eli

Alice!

You must know my secretary!

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Eli, unless this has happened to you, you can't quite understand. There is a certain mentality that prevails in some Byzantine Catholic Communities whereby your opinion doesn't count if you aren't a "cradle Byzantine." I know it is hard to understand that people in a christian community would feel that way, but it is occuring more often than you think.

What do you say to people who tell you, "I never stopped at your church because I thought it belonged to a certain ethnic group, and you had to be that ethnicity to belong." Most people who are not "cradle Byzantine Catholics" are dragged there by a spouse who is Byzantine. That is the state of our church right now. Not many people just happen to show-up, although I wish it were that way.

That's not true. Although it is a Ruthenian Recension, only a handful of people in this country consider themselves Ruthenian. The American society doesn't consider itself one ethnic group past the second generation, typically because intermarriages have taken place. If we were to consider ourselves ethnic parishes we would wither and die on the vine, because then we become like a potted plant -- rootbound, unable to grow.

Our community should not be bound by our ethnicity, but by the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Look at the problem that ethnicity is causing in our church right now, as evidenced by one Bishop's view of other ethnic and religious groups. Were he to understand that we all bound together by the message of Jesus Christ, he would be looking to create a common ground for all Eastern Catholic and Orthodox to celebrate a more universal Liturgy in English.

But, instead what do we have? A manufactured Liturgy driven by ethnic intolerance that will not only distance us from our Orthodox brothers, but divide our own recension.

JMHO, Cathy

Isn't that interesting. What makes you think it hasn't, and more than once.

What do you think I've done? Run? From a question? I don't think so. I answered the question and asked a few of my own.

If you think this Church will stand as an eastern Church full of nothing but transfers and converts, I fear that you will find yourself to have been very badly mistaken.

Eli

In part, but the other changes would concern me as well.

The last statement is actually I would say one of the most convincing arguments I have heard used against vesperal liturgies.

Andrew

If you have never been to Vespers on a Saturday night, I highly suggest doing so!

Really? Some of the the most "orthodox" Byzantines I know are the converts & transfers. I can think of at least three Byzantine Priests who were transfers, who follow the full Ruthenian Recension and understand our Liturgy & Faith better than some cradle Byzantine Priests. Why? They don't come with the same "Latinazation Baggage" we've been fed over the years.

Additionally, two transfers in my parish are some of the most orthodox, and do the most to help our parish Liturgically. In my witness, the converts & transfers are not apt to accept, "we've always done it that way" statements. The actually want to be taught the correct traditions.

I would put my convert/transfer up against your cradle Byzantine Catholic any day and I would learn more about my faith from the newcomer. How do I know that? I learned 75% of what I know about the Byzantine Church from a former Latin, who is now a Byzantine Priest. And you know what, I am a cradle Byzantine, schooled for the first eight years at a Byzantine Catholic School.

So the next time you run into a convert or transfer, thank them....they will help save our beloved Byzantine Catholic Church!

I've been reading this exchange between Eli and Cathy. Eli, I make no presumption about what you have and have not encountered. However, I'm more inclined to agree with Cathy. My fiancee (who is a Roman Catholic but who has agreed that we will raise our children as Byzantine Catholic) attend a Ruthenian parish that has a mix of people. Some are of a Slavic background, while others, like my fiancee and I, are of Western European descent. Also, there are a few who are of East Asian descent. There are some of the Slavic members in the parish (though by no means all of them) who have been known to say to Hispanic visitors, "Why are you here? You don't belong here." Also, one said to my fiancee one time about the pastor, who grew up a Roman Catholic, "We try not to hold it against him that he's Latin rite." Such behaviors, especially the garbage about telling the Hispanic family "you don't belong here," are reprehensible. They put their souls in great jeopardy when they act that way and behavior like this will ultimately ruin the Byzantine Church in America, which would be a great tragedy-not just for the small minority of people who are "cradle Byzantines," but for the entire Church.

I know of a Byzantine Catholic Priest who was Latin, and believe me he knows his place, as it was established early on even from his seminary days. Those that are not born Byzantine Catholic are considered second-class citizens, including the priests. I wish I were making this up.

Dear Cathy,
You are certainly not making it up. All too many examples of this phenomenon could be cited. As a priest colleague of mine - now retired after many years of sacrificial, devoted service - occasionally comments: "every so often they 'go native' on you!".

Fr Serge

Really?

Fact of the matter is that I am not denying any of the bad behavior of Ruthenians. Why would I be defensive? I am not Ruthenian.

I did however grow up in coal mining country where Slavs were the workers and the rest of us did the really important work of keeping the money flow and the trains running on time, so I do have some sympathy for dumb hunkies. More than sympathy I have a deep respect and gratitude for the hard scrabble work that they did without which we would have no trains, at all, to run on time.

I am not going to argue with any one of the last three posts here. It's just more complaining only this time from the other side of the fence.

Do what I do, ignore the nasties, smile, love in your heart, according to St. Symeon the New Theologian, ask questions, answer questions, reassure, be there in times of need, and get over that sweet unctious pleasure of being deeply offended.

Fact of the matter is:

There is more to a particular Church than a liturgy. If ALL that really needed to be considered was the right liturgy and the right rubrics done the right way, then there's no need for a Church at all.

You could have your Byzantine use under any Latin bishop in the world for as long as you could find a priest to serve the proper liturgy using the proper liturgical texts and norms.

Eli

Eli:
I find no "swewet unctious pleasure" in "being deeply offended." Besides, it is not so much the fact that I take offense, or that Cathy takes offense, or that Fr. Serge takes offense that matters. What does matter is that such behavior is offensive to Christ. The Church has been given Christ's ministry of reconciling the world to God-we are "ambassadors for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18-20. We are certainly being poor stewards of that ministry of reconciliation when people within the Church behave in a manner that is thoroughly contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that behavior is allowed to go un-answered. I certainly think that we must be careful not to commit the sin of hypocrisy and point out the faults of those around us, while overlooking our own sins. However, given the urgency of the task of sharing the good news that God is reconciling the world to himself through Jesus Christ, I don't think the Church can afford simply to ignore behavior that gives such offense to a guest of the Church that that person is most likely never to come back.
In Peace,
Ryan