www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I have never.... (A discussion regarding BCA and Orthodox practice and behavior

Dear Ryan,

You are quite right.

Infact, the reason I made mention of those unwelcoming and unfriendly church secretaries is because in the world of upscale retail, as well as the food and beverage industries, where money is the bottom line, those who work, welcome, and engage the public are *expected*, as a condition of their job description, to be friendly. Infact, this type of engaging the consumer public used to be alien overseas years ago until American companies like Starbucks and Domino's Pizza opened up there. Part of the training of foreigners for the job was to adapt American style smiling and friendliness.

So, if one was to compare the importance of friendly and welcoming church personnel vs. store retail personnel, how much more important are SOULS as the bottom line than dollars???

I would suggest to all our priests that they make a point of telling all secretaries, receptionists and parish council members that they MUST be friendly and welcoming!!!

Alice

We only dwell on the bad behavior of others because it affords us consequences that are, shall we say, not too painful. Otherwise we would stay as far away from dwelling on the bad behaviors of others as we do from an open flame.

I'm sure you desire to have your faults forgiven, and on occasion, seek to have them overlooked entirely. That is only human so I do not mean to probe too deeply into your personal being, but use a natural response, to illustrate a complimentary point to the one you are making.

But again none of this changes the fact that a particular Church is established to shepherd a particular people. Bishops shepherd people not liturgies.

If the Ruthenian Church is no longer serving Ruthenian people then there is no reason for Rome to sanction the expenditures necessary to sustain a particular Church.

If we send the message that we are no longer a part of a particular people then Rome will rightly conclude that there is no longer need for a particular Church.

Look for some of the discussions in other venues here on the fact that the Byzantine Church is not a Major Archeparchy.

Father Serge's Ukranian Church is, so he does not have quite the same worries that the Ruthenians have vis a vis Rome.

One can sometimes afford to be less concerned about the long term and often unintended consequences of pulling splinters out of the eye of one's neighbor.

Eli

I have to agree with Eli on both counts. The Eastern churches are not simply liturgical communities, but were formed in a cultural context and should continue to exist within that framework. The liturgy and the customs that surround it are visible and important expressions of this overall framework. That�s not to say any and all people shouldn�t be welcome to come and participate (they should), but by the same token I think any who come in should be prepared to adopt elements of the culture they are choosing. Strip the church of its �ethnicity�, and I think you will find you�ve cut many of the ties that bind the community together. All of which leads I think to the second point. Cut the Ruthenian part out, and I think there is absolutely no justification for the BCC to exist as a separate entity from either other Eastern Catholic Churches or even from the Roman Church itself.

Now, before the calls for my head on a platter come forth, let me say I'm equally as critical of people in Orthodoxy who have this idea that what is right for the church is taking out all of the "ethnic stuff". Eli actually put my own feelings in to words a few pages back. "Somewhere there is a seriously knowledgeable and loving middle ground between ethnic cleansing and phyletism."

Andrew

There is something unreal here. Each Church of the Catholic Communion (for that matter, every Church that I've ever heard of) is supposed to look after her own faithful AND preach the Gospel to all comers.

But the expression "her own faithful" does not designate some sociological group other than those who are in fact members/communicants of the Church in question. This is not a question of race, color, ethnic derivation or one's preference in football teams. [That last isn't as silly as it sounds - check the "Circus Riots" in Constantinople in the Olden Days!]

Money has precious little to do with this - and Rome does not sanction or supply the cash to keep the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia afloat.

As for me, I can assure you that the Greek-Catholic parish, dearly though I love her, does not constitute a Major Archiepiscopal church!

Have I missed something somewhere?

Fr Serge

Eli, I'm not suggesting we stop our traditions or disregard those who brought this recension here. I'm Ruthenian, probably 75%. But I am incredibly practical (one friend would say too much : ) and would not be anywhere else liturgically for all the Litanies in Ruthenia. But, I do realize we have something special to share, and we as a church need to be as open to others if our beloved Byzantine Catholic Church is to continue with vim and vigor.

You can't expect in future years to have just Ruthenian's sitting in the pews (we shouldn't be sitting by the way, but that's another thread and sore spot). If that is your hope, I'm afraid it's not realistic. Even the Ukrainians realize this and spend a lot of time and money bringing over immigrants. Should we do the same? I don't know. But I do know there are a whole lot of people in our own country who are unchurched. We can't, and according to the Gospel, we shouldn't ignore them.
Why wouldn't you want someone walking down the street to not experience the Byzantine Church just because of their nationality and heritage? I love my church too much to subscribe to that....

What should we do? Hmmm, that's the million dollar question. Should we sponsor a ship and bring them over from Slovakia? Probably not a good idea, as they are very latinized, and have an incredible dislike for the Orthodox. As you can see with our "NEW" Liturgy, we don't need more of that nonesense.

We should do everything we can to include them. Really, the difference between the Ukies and Ruthenians and other Byzantine Churches regarding the Divine Liturgy should just be the music. We have our "style," they have theirs -- but the rest should be the same. Rome says that's the way it should be with the Orthodox, but again that's another thread. If we were in Arizona or Mexico, you should expect to incorporate the proper language in say the "Christ is Risen" that we chant in Paschal Matins. Remember, we are to proclaim the Gospel in all languages, not just Church Slavonic. If I had an Irish priest, I would expect and welcome a Gaelic Christ is Risen.
A priest from the BC Seminary once told me that the use of Slavonic in our liturgies would be the undoing of our church. I debated him for 45 minutes, and you know what, as hard as that was to admit, he's right.

No one is suggesting we remove the ethnicity, as much as we are saying we need to temper our attitudes toward newcomers who don't share the same heritage.

JMHO, Cathy

Absolutely! But others have not and I will allow that to suffice for the time being.

Eli

Cathy, a question on a couple of things you said.

It seems like there is something of a paradox here. Couldn't one argue (and I think it has been), that the new liturgy along with the other changes are actually accomodations meant to facilitate the inclusion of non-Ruthenians?

Andrew

In reagrds to Alice's post above regarding parish council's, THe GOA Dept of Outreach and Evangelism has produced the above link as a resource for them.

GOA Parish Council Handout [goarch.org]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

What exactly defines what each church's "own faithful" is then? Is it a spontaneous creation like a petri dish that can appear and disappear? A historic holdover that continues to exist as a de facto reality simply because it is there? The people currently on the rolls of each church?

All churches have a distinct cultural and ethnic composition based on the place they originated. Why have particular churches if that is not the case? Why have competing particular churches side by side? Why within the geographic boundaries of Ukraine should there be two particular churches in communion with Rome? Why not have a super or para church where cultural differences are set aside?

Andrew

No sir, you haven't missed a thing. Some are so caught up in where their ancestors came from, they would prefer the church to perish rather than adapt. It's people like that who are killing us.

Dear Cathy,

I realize that these are your opinions.

Part of the reason that I will not respond to you here, or to Father Keleher, in terms of the substance of your replies to me is that you have added a great deal to the very simple point I was making and put words in my mouth that I did not have there nor were they inherent in what I was saying.

So it is impossible for anyone really to discuss further at the point and still be able to clarify the original point. The clarity of an argument is often dependent upon sequencing. That gets lost in all kinds of side issues that should be dealt with in some kind of order, so that one may see the interrelationships clearly rather than in a ball of confused and confusing rhetoric.

When another opportunity presents itself, I may find that I have more to say.

As to your opinion concerning language, I attend a liturgy that regularly makes use of several languages so that all of the peoples in that parish are learning beyond their own, or their own preferences. It is a very unifying act.

Respectfully,

Eli

That's what they would have you believe, but please don't start to drink the Kool-Aid. How does taking less litanies, adding inclusive language, saying the Anaphora outloud & trimming down the Antiphons accomodate non-Ruthenians? Now, removing Slavonic from all of our books would do more to accomodate non-Ruthenians than all of the above.

I think what we're talking about here are two different things. I want us to be Ruthenian in our Liturgy, it's beautiful and it doesn't need monkeyed with. But our "flavoring" should not determine who is welcomed to a parish and who isn't -- that's not Christian.

What I'm saying is that you can't have parishioners going around asking people their last name, then replying "well what are you doing here?" Obviously, the Holy Spirit brought them to us, we need to do what the Gospel tells us to do. Do you refute the Gospel?

Exactly! Where we can be inclusive we should be. But we're not always. How much easier would it have been for you if people didn't question your motives in joining a Byzantine Catholic Church? What we should be doing is sharing our Ruthenian Heritage, not punishing people because they have a different ethnic make-up. But too many times that's what happens.

Cathy

Cathy

Take my word for it, I am not quaffing from that cup.

Hypothetically speaking I think the argument could be made that shorter services, simplifications, gender neutral language, etc. could have a broader appeal and could fit better with American culture where the outsiders are coming from and would make them feel less out of their element and more at home. I happen to disagree with the idea of doing this, but fundamentally I think there could be substance to this argument.

I agree, it shouldn�t determine who is welcome and who isn�t. I think fundamentally though, the culture and the liturgy at some level are tied together. Remove the Ruthenian part and outsiders may feel completely welcome, but the remaining Ruthenians may simply walk out. I think the key is finding the happy medium that Eli mentioned.

Last I checked no, I don�t, but give me time! (KIDDING!). I could relate my own experiences (including being asked what my last name is), but I don�t think they�re applicable. A., because they�re boring, and B., for the most part they have been in Orthodoxy.

Andrew

It may not really be pertinent to confuse maintaining some usage of Slavonic, even if only once a month (or even Greek, maybe once a year) to maintain historical roots and awareness with the foolishness of nosing around into people's genealogies in the parish vestibule. They are two different things, essentially unrelated to each other. If you can stop the nosiness, that will be an enormous help, and has no interaction whatever with the Liturgy itself, to my mind.

Staro