www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Contacting the Congregation for the Oriental Churches

Originally posted by djs:
[QUOTE] I link again to the article of Schmeemann, in which .........

So you respond by posting an article by a schismatic, Old Calendarist bishop from a jurisdiction known not only for its dislike of the Catholic Church but the true Orthodox Church. The greatest sickness and illness in Orthodoxy are these pseudo-traditionalist schismatics running about and an article by one of their bishops is not worth reading.

Originally posted by djs:
As to the "Amen choir". :rolleyes: I have made suggestions here to improve the provisional texts. I have made extensive comments to Fr. David in writing. On the use of "for us" I have been consistently negative. How is this "Amen"?

I take issue with aspects of the discussion here. I think that the "sky is falling" vision of what is happening is wildly wrong. I object to the politicization of this discussion. And I object to the bashing of the bishops et al. involved in this work.

Schmeeman's comments about the ideas within Orthodoxy over the past century are either true or false. To the extent that they are true they make an important point to those who see these reforms as following the dreaded NO Latin model. "Are we going through all that again?" There are good reasons to think that that ain't necessarily so. If you want to challenge Schmeemann seriously, challenge his history not his person.

Originally posted by djs:
Gordo, I was responding to Monomakh "Amen Choir" remark, not your Amen, the meaning of which was clear. I appreciate your restraint in these discussions.

To be avoided on this account are expressions characteristic of commercial publicity, political or ideological programs, passing fashions, and those which are subject to regional variations or ambiguities in meaning. Academic style manuals or similar works, since they sometimes give way to such tendencies, are not to be considered standards for liturgical translation. On the other hand, works that are commonly considered �classics� in a given vernacular language may prove useful in providing a suitable standard for its vocabulary and usage.

The first requirement of every Eastern liturgical renewal, as is also the case for liturgical reform in the West, is that of rediscovering full fidelity to their own liturgical traditions, benefiting from their riches and eliminating that which has altered their authenticity. Such heedfulness is not subordinate to but precedes so-called updating...In modifying ancient liturgical practice, it must be determined if the element to be introduced is coherent with the contextual meaning in which it is placed. Such a context should be understood beginning with eventual references to Sacred Scripture, interpretations of the Holy Fathers, liturgical reforms previously made, and mystagogical catechesis. Here it must be verified that the new change is homogeneous with the symbolic language, with the images and the style specific to the liturgy of the particular Church. The new element will have its place if, required for serious pastoral reasons, it blends within the celebration without contrast but with coherence, almost as if it had naturally derived from it. In addition, it should be ensured that it is not already present, perhaps in another form, in a different moment of the celebration or in another part of the liturgical <corpus> of that Church.

Every renewal initiative should be careful not to be conditioned by other systems, which may appear to be more efficient. From time to time, addressing the faithful of various Eastern Catholic Churches, John Paul II's vibrant and repeated exhortations refer to such caution: "Do not adhere with excessive improvisation to the imitation of cultures and traditions which are not your own, thus betraying the sensibility of your own people. (...) This means it is necessary that every eventual adaptation of your liturgy be founded on an attentive study of the sources, objective knowledge of the specific features of your culture, and maintenance of the tradition common to all Coptic Christianity."...These considerations do not take away from the rightful exigency to express, as much as possible, the Gospel in a plain and clear way for the contemporary man and woman. Every formula necessitates, therefore, unceasing vigilance to remain alive under the breath of the Spirit. But Tradition, even in its literal expression�as is the case for Scriptures�contains unrenouncable treasures; its strengths are received, assimilated, and utilized to transmit to mankind [oops] the fullness of the Mystery of God.

On the issue of gender-inclusive language, he ended with the statement that it is because it gives power to the disenfranchised that it is feared and resisted by the clergy.