www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization I Hate Converts...(And I Am One)

Jeffery Tucker's column I Hate Converts (and I Am One) appears today on BeliefNet. He says that: "Many Catholic newbies insist on lecturing the rest of us on how we should live our faith. They should chill for a while." http://www.beliefnet.com/story/198/story_19843_1.html

While I am sure that this happens when anyone "converts" to another religion, opinion or even a political party, why is this? Is Tucker correct? If one does not temper that excitement about "finding the truth" :rolleyes: I feel that it can actually turn people off about God and the Church and do more harm to precious souls truly seeking Christ. Fr. Robert Stern from CNEWA talks about his view of "conversion" http://www.cnewa.org/mag-article-bodypg-us.aspx?articleID=3204.

Now, as I get older, I realize that the fire of enthusiasm belongs in the fireplace of my heart and that it is important not to burn people up around me in the name of goodness, truth or any well-intentioned "ism". Sharing my faith in Christ means just that, "sharing" not force-feeding. I pray that the Lord will make me an instrument of His peace.

Ray

Here is a very good essay om the same subject by the OCA priest, Fr John Garvey. It really does "jive" with my experiences of some Orthodox converts (and yes, i am one too

http://www.dneoca.org/articles/typology0197.html

I wonder if this is the Jeffery Tucker of the Mises Institute, also Editor of Musica Sacra magazine, director of the St. Cecilia's Cantorum, and frequent contributor to Shawn's website? Being the Tridentine buff he is, I can hardly imagine him being terrily comfortable with altarboygirs either.

I usually like his articles a lot and here he makes a lot of good points.

But:

'Pretends'? That's pretty damned presumptuous of him to say. Not to mention condescending to the East ('exotic') as well as this person. (Well, nobody's perfect, even a guy as smart and perceptive as him.) So ethnic Germans aren't supposed to like let alone adopt Near Eastern stuff... according to whom? (Which encyclical is that from?) Erm... is he falling into his own trap?

I'm sure many of the high-church 'vostochnik' ('Easternite') minority of Byzantine Catholics who've come from somewhere else, often the Roman Rite, have been on the receiving end of this nonsense. Including from some (not all!) Roman Riters who resent you for 'leaving', which is what Tucker sounds like in this snippet.

Anyway, getting back to the main point, I found this blog post a good answer and antidote to the problem:

On making apologetical points - or not. [sarabitus.blogspot.com]

A story that happens to be from the Orthodox tradition.

Peace out!

Interesting article, but at times I found Tucker's denunciation of convert habits to be just as tiresome as the habits themselves!

And what's wrong with hanging a crucifix (or icon) in every room, or asking a priest to bless your car? Okay, getting your socks blessed is a little much, but genuine acts of piety aren't wrong! And, as Serge noted, his calling an Eastern parish "exotic" and judging his friend's motives for liking that church's culture is just silly.

Tucker's "hate" towards converts might just be hatred directed at himself in his previous convert form.

Dave, not a convert

Ah Dave, evidently you have never met a true Mnogopravoslavnie convert. It goes like this: You are standing in the back of the Church, assisting the babyshki with their coats and filling the candle boxes. In walks in a young family. The father figure is in his early 30's, with hair in a pony tail and a beard that has not seen scissors in years. As he takes off his fur coat, he is waring a rybashka with a belt, cossack pants and high boots (or if is really up there, oonychi- bast sandals!). Mama is next with not 1, but 3 scarves wrapped tightly around her head and wearing a hand stiched festival dress from Tuala province. The children are all lined up, military fashion in maching rybashki and boots. They proceed to enter the Church, and fling themselves in full prostrations 3 times each as they light approx. 150 candles! As I approach them to let them know that they don't have to prostate for each candle, naturally I speak in Russian, assuming that they are straight off the boat from Dzedyshkagorod in the Northern Theibad. Much to my surprise, none of them speak Russian! It turns out that Barsenuphius Theophylact used to be Harry Smith, and is a convert from the Episcopal Church. Ok, all well and good. But during the service, one notices Barsenuphius becoming agitated. It appears that Father is not doing the full Monastic service. He has omitted several irmoi and polielai has been shortened to only 1/2 hour. Barsenuphius grabs his children in disgust and goes looking for a "True" Church that doesn't cater to people who are not willing to stand for 12 hour Saturday Vigil services. He has heard of a church only 300 miles away, under Archbishop Epitikimaximus, the last "true" bishop on earth, who does full Athonite style services everyday. There he is happy wearing his hair shirt, with 70 pounds of chains hanging around his neck, kneeling on bricks at home because his "starets", Bishop Epitikimaximus, has told him to mortify the flesh. But the telling this is, in 2 years, Barsenuphius Theophylact and his family are nowhere to be seen. He has decided that all Christians are heretics, and he and his family are now living in Tibet, practicing tantric Buddhism. Oh and Barsenuphius Theophylact is now called "OM".

This is what used to be known as the "Covert Disease"

Alexandr

Alexandr-
I'm new to the forum and thus far have only 'lurked'
THIS one however has me laughing so hard I'm crying!
Thanks,
Andras

Dear Andras,

Yes, it is funny, but I have actually seen such behavior. A wise Hieromonk once told me that to find God, one must become small. I didn't understand him at the time, but over the many years since, it has become known to me what he meant. Those closest to God are not the names we read in the paper, or prominent in Church affairs. God's closest are the young girl hiding behind the column, so that she can say her prayers undisturbed, the old monk who hides away in a cave, the mentally handicapped, small children, you catch my drift. God is not found in clothing, appearances, language. These are tools that we use, but one must never mistake the tools for the final result. And that, ultimately is what is so sad about convertitis.

Alexandr

I think I have met him at Divine Liturgy. He does sound familiar.

Actually I found the story amusing, and maybe true in some instances. But while we are chuckling, I would like our posters to think for a few moments. The truth in the above story shows a lacks of spiritual depth and for those that have come to the faith, and that almost no one is helping form the convert in proper growth spiritually.

I gave a talk a number of years ago on the conversion process, and it is amazing that we help those seeking the faith until the day they are received into the church, then we walk away from them leaving them to their own devices in developing further along the spiritual path. It is like a mother nurturing her unborn child until it is born, and then abandoning it and letting it starve to death expecting it to care for itself.

If you truly look at the conversion process, converts are the newborns into the faith, and need to fed spiritually even after to reception so that they grow spiritually. It is the role not only for the parish priest, but also the godparents and others that help bring them into the faith. If not this story will be rule, with those falling away from spiritual starvation, and to our own condemnation.

Yes, some converts may actually embrace some pietistic customs that many have ignored for so long. Maybe because it reminds us also what we should be doing in our lives. Tempered with proper nurturing, extremism or "convertitis" can be averted, and yes you also may learn and grow by also nurturing those that are new to the faith. Who knows, we may actually nurture ourselves.

I also want to remind all, we are all converts. No one is born into the faith, but are born as Christians by Baptism and Chrismation. Whether that happens as a physical infant or not is in God's providence. While the story may be amusing, it is also a sad story of those that embraced the faith and spiritually starved to death.

Just some thoughts on the issue.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ (a convert)

Amen, Father Anthony!

I remember a poster from a few years ago who commented on the fact that certain converts begin to adapt many of the accompanying ethnic habits of the churches they join, including beginning to wear black or "ethnic" clothing, let their hair grow out (I even know someone who took on an ethnic accent, but that is another story!) and this individual commented that this was not conversion but Halloween! Your post demonstrates how facile sometimes our reasons for joining a church can be. But often God accomodates Himself to our weaknesses, so the things that draw us in, while ultimatey of moderate value, have the effect of helping get to the right place...the will of God for our lives!

In Christ,

Gordo

What Fr Anthony says is true. The only place that one can learn to become Orthodox or Catholic is in Church. The trouble is, in our electronic age, many are attempting to self teach. I teach an Adult education class. I wish that I had a quarter for every time someone has asked me questions about the Philokalia, or the Ladder of Divine Ascent. I almost wish at times that these books had never been translated. One has to understand basic Catechism before one can even begin to comprehend such works. I frequently have to pound in that ALL is to be found in the Divine Services. One can learn the full Theology of the Church merely by attending all the Divine Services. Listen to what is being read. Compare from day to day, week to week and you will see how the DIvine Services are the living, breathing embodiment of the Church. All the books and videos and whatnot can not teach one what it is to be Orthodox. The only way to learn the faith is to live it, not read about it.
The other area where I have noticed confusion is the concept that the "monastic way" is the ideal. There are 2 paths in Christianity, in the world, and out of the world. For some reason, those who have self educated themselves, often assume that the Monastic path is the higher one, and should be used by all. But one cannot be a monk and be in the world. Our beloved monastics have chosen the Angelic path, fraught with discomfort, deprivation, and self denial. The Rewards are great, and so is the price paid. Not all are called to this path. When I hear a call for more monastic services, I shiver. It is a Cross that not all can bear. Our Heavenly Father has appointed all of us with a path in life. We are called to serve Him each in our own way. And our efforts to find our own way often result in error, or even apostasy.
It is the responsibilty of the Priests to cherish, guard, teach and protect the sheep assigned to them. One cannot be recieved into the Church, and then abandoned to ones own devices. Spiritual growth requires nurturing, care and feeding from the moment of birth to the passing of the soulf from the body. Anything less is derelict.

Does this make any sense?

Alexandr

As a side note, I remember my first day at seminary. Fr Luke made the rounds of each new seminarian's room and confiscated all copies of the Philokalia, Ladder of Divine Ascent, and the Pedalion, which of course every last one of us owned. They were not returned until each seminarian's spiritual father OK'd it. That in of itself taught me much.

Alexandr

That in itself speaks volumes. If we have not learned to pray and understand the basics of the faith and live it, how can you jump to the filet mignon of the faith?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I believe that Jewish rabbis also had a practice along these lines as far as stages to reveal certain aspects/interpretations or even passages of Sacred Scripture. We may desire meat, but we must first adjust ourselves to the milk of the kerygma before we can climb the heights of the Mount of Transfiguration!

Great story about the books in the seminary...

Gordo