www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization What do we have to fear? and how do we overcome it?

My time in the Eastern Lung of the Church has been short. At most I have been around about 2 years since I first set foot inside the Eastern Rite parish that I now attend.

So here are my thoughts about the Vision that has been talked about on this forum.

1) We must take up the Apostolic model of evangelization. No longer can we assume that we will get members simply by having a building or through birth. I am (or will be a rite switcher) however we simply can't satisfied with the table scraps that fall off the Western Church's table. In order to be a growing and vibrant Church we must therefore go and embrace Christ's call to go out and preach Gospel.

2) No one is off limits. We must reach out to all. Protestants, Roman Catholics, Anglicans. Hispanics, African-Americans, Anglo-Americans. This is the Eastern Catholic version of No Child Left Behind But without being PC and everything about being Biblically Correct.

3) Latinization is not a good thing. Look why be Byzantine if you can get almost the same thing from the RC parish down the street. We must embrace our traditions and then teach our own people why we do things this way. If the Legend is true about the Russian envoy's trip to Constantinople then we have no reason why our Liturgies should be any less specular.

4) Challenge our own members. We must also challenge our own members to start to live life of Jesus. Reform begins at home and we must therefore start teaching strongly and confidently. Peter didn't attract 3000 new members of the Church on Pentecost with the Gospel of Inclusiveness. He got them because they heard the truth and they embraced it.

5) We can't be afraid of making people angry. Too often we think... "Wow... this will really get someone angry and they may leave." that type of attitude gets you a Church that is afraid to preach the gospel. This comes from experience folks... I once did a teaching on Matthew's teaching on divorce and remarriage for RCIA. The RCIA team told the pastor that I was "frightening" people away from the Church. People will embrace the truth if given a chance.

6) Move beyond the "Turf War" mentality. Get rid of the redundant resources i.e. if there are three seminaries, then we must look at using those resources in a better way. Once we grow then we can reopen facilities, but until then we need to be smart and use resources to our best advantages. Yes, the human condition is such that we want to hang onto all of our toys, but in this situation it is time to share in order to survive.

7) The question must be asked "Where will the Eastern Rite be in 50 years?" This is a valid question, this is a question that must be answered. Will we be a smaller Church that has sold off properties, with an older membership? Will we be a vibrant Church that is spreading the word of God?

8) Technology is great, but it will never take the place of person to person sharing of the Gospel of our Lord. The answer is to embrace technology to do our Job, but we must never rely on it in order to do our Job.

Mind you these are only things that have hit my own mind. I share these with you to discuss. I would like to know what has been tried and if it failed, what did we learn about this.

Father Loya has shared his vision. Personally, I believe, his vision is one of a vibrant growing Church that will lead to a bright future.

John Gibson

Dear John G:

As a protestant convert to Roman Catholicism, it seems you continue to carry a baggage loaded with loathing of the Roman Church.

Is the Gospel as proclaimed by the Latin Church NOT biblically correct?

Oh, you did not include the Orthodox in your enumeration! I thought all along that we Catholics, Eastern and Roman, are attuned to each other being in the same Barque of Peter!

Amado

Amado,

You know... I wish that you knew me in person then you could really know what I am like. Unfortunately the electronic communication systems leads to communication that can be less than ideal.

1) You think I loath the Western Rite? The answer is no, it was the west where I became Catholic. I still love the stations of the Cross, praying the Rosary, the rich prayers of the Divine Office. My experience with the Divine Liturgy is what brought me East, not hatred of the Western Rite.

The line about being biblically correct and not politically correct was aimed at ourselves not at anyone else. If we don't preach the truth, then we will not grow.

2) The list under the targets, was not meant to be exhaustive. I am sorry that I didn't include Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, Ceremonial Magicians, and East Brazilian Cabbage worshipers. I will try to be more inclusive in my listing in the future. Or better yet.. I won't list.

Finally,

We have seemed to get off on the wrong foot. If I have angered you, then please accept my apologies, I do not mean to come off anti-west. If I do then I will be more careful.

I have meant to answer your post in Evangelization, but I haven't had a chance. I did read over the USCCB Hispanic ministry page. I wish that the diocese that I was in would make it a priority, but they have other issues they would rather deal with. I was working with my Priest in my old parish to get a Spanish service going but he didn't want to deal with it. He rather decided to add one spanish song to the noon mass and say that was his Spanish Outreach. I finally gave up after he was reassigned and our new pastor wasn't interested in outreach. What was very sad was the non-denominational church down the street was having spanish worship, spanish bible studies. This should have been us and it wasn't. So... yes there might be some baggage there from the fact that two pastors didn't seem to have an interest in reaching out to the hispanic community.

My comments from that thread were meant to be a "what are we going to do about this." Because all the programs in the world mean nothing if they aren't not followed through with.

I have very good friends down in the Southwest (Dallas, and San Antiono) who have lamented to me that they see their friends leaving the Catholic church and going into the protestant denominations and no one (even the parish priest) doesn't seem to give a rats rear end that they have left.

Anyhow... Again, I hope we can start off again without the friction.

John

Dear John:

Although your parish may not have it, I think your Diocese has an on-going Hispanic Ministry.

It just needs timely reminders of its mission, once in a while.

http://www.dioceseofjoliet.org/ohm/

Amado

Wouldn't that really be a swift kick in the pants?



John

What are the things that we fear. I know that we fear change. I know that we don't want to lose something that may be precious.

John Paul II said that it is not enough to believe in Jesus, that you must bring others to him. I agree with him. Lets start bringing people to Jesus!

It has also been said that John Paul II said "A church that does not evangelize is a dead church"

The questions then need to be asked:

What is holding us back?

What can we do to get around these obstacles?

Dear John G:

Certain enterprising Latin evangelizers have come up with a novel battlecry:

"Don't keep your faith. Give it away!"

Amado

We fear because we don't have love/charity towards others. So we fail to do what God is aking of us, because we are not able to step out freely in the love of Christ. We refuse to accept his power to do all things: "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Do we take that command seriously? We want to do things oursleves instead of asking the Holy Spirit to do all things in us, through us, and for us - we are his body. We can do nothing unless we truly believe and act upon Christ's authority, in his Name. Otherwise are are timid, cowering in a our shoes just like the apostles did before Pentecost. Pani Rose

On St. Augustine�s De doctrina Christiana � "On Christian doctrine"...

Next, Augustine teaches that there are four possible objects of human love: (1) The things above us, (2) ourselves, (3) things equal to us, and (4) things below us (cf. DDC I:22:20�23:22). Since all men by nature love themselves, there was no need for the Bible to give us precepts about self-love. And, since it is obvious to most men that they should not love what is below them�namely, lesser objects such as food or stones�but merely use them to survive or to build, fewer precepts are given concerning these.

About the love of things equal to us�other men� and things above us�God and his angels�Scripture has everything to say. Our Lord tells us the two greatest commandments are, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets" (Matt.22:37�40).

Concerning love of our neighbors, Augustine reminds us that "all other men are to be loved equally; but since you cannot be of assistance to everyone, those are especially to be cared for who are most closely bound to you by place, time, or opportunity, as if by chance. . . . Thus, among all men, not all of whom you can care for, you must consider those in your life as if chosen by lot, who, in reality, are chosen by God" (DDC I:28:29). Therefore, Augustine�s third great prerequisite for interpreting Scripture is to be truly charitable to every person in your life....

According to Augustine, Scripture teaches with the intention of invigorating charity and vanquishing and destroying lust (cf. DDC III:10:15). He defines charity as "emotion of the soul whose purpose is to enjoy God for his own sake and one�s self and neighbor for the sake of God." Lust, on the other hand, &quotis a motion of the soul bent upon enjoying one�s self and neighbor, and any created thing without reference to God. The action of unbridled lust in demoralizing one�s own soul and body is called vice; what is does to harm another is called crime. . . . "Likewise, what charity does for one�s own benefit is called utility; what it does for our neighbor�s good is called kindness. In this case, utility leads the way, for no one can give to another from a supply that he does not have. The more the power of lust is destroyed, the more the power of charity is strengthened" (DDC III:10:16). So even if the words of Scripture are harsh or the deeds of God or his saints appear cruel, Augustine maintains, these words and deeds are efficacious in destroying the power of lust....

On a last note, Augustine admonishes us to pray to God for help in understanding the Bible. Indeed, Holy Scripture itself admonishes us to "pray unceasingly" (1 Thes.5:17), "because the Lord gives wisdom: and out of his mouth comes prudence and understanding" (Prov.2:6).
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009fea5.asp

To the last thought on prayer, fasting must be added. Fasting unlocks within us all the chains that bind us down. Because we are denying the flesh and seeking God in prayer, heaven and earth moves. God will make straight the path of those who seek to spead his Word. He will open the doors because through prayer and fasting all things are acomplished, Luke 11:19, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."


Seek and You Shall Find
"Ask and it shall be given unto you,
Seek and you shall find."
As you submit to Christ in all you do,
He�ll cleanse your heart and mind -
Satisfying your hungry soul each day
With manna from above,
Revealing to you His will and way,
And His unchanging love.
"Knock and it shall be opened unto you" -
God�s grace and power receive.
He�ll give you joy and life anew,
And all your fears relieve.
As you stand on firm foundation -
Christ, the solid Rock,
There�s assurance of salvation,
And blessings when you knock.
So, "Ask and it shall be given unto you,
Seek and you shall find."
His peace will, surely flood your soul,
And heal your troubled mind.
http://www.inspirationalpoetry.com/faith1/seekandyoushallfind.shtml

The blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation. From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias .... verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.--Luke 11:50-51

John Gibson,

I want to ask you a question that might seem provocative. That is not my intent, and if it offends I apologize and withdraw it.

Here it is:

With all that you proposed, why don't you just become Orthodox ?

The vision of the Eastern Catholic Churches (in communion with Rome) as a living bridge to reunion is a nice one but, I am increasingly concluding that it is an unrealistic one. If people want to be Orthodox, they will be Orthodox; if they want to be catholic, they will be (Latin Rite) Catholic. Outside of their ethnic homelands, at least here in the U.S., the Eastern Catholic Churches seem to be overall dying-out due to cultural assimilation. Also, when I proposed (at this website) the idea of a version of the OCA for the Catholic Church, the idea went over like a lead balloon. But Orthodoxy --Greek, Russian, Anthiochan and OCA-- seems to be growing in the U.S. The demographics is pink elephant in the living room of this whole topic. In America, Eastern Catholic Churches seem to be dying out while Orthodox Churches and (Latin Rite) Catholic Church seem to be growing. Lesson: people are voting with their feet. Those who want to be Catholic are being Catholic; those who want to be Orthodox are being Orthodox; and (unless there is a miracle), Uniatism is disappearing in America.

So, given all that (and correct me if I am wrong), I respectfully ask you and anyone else who feels like answering:

Why not just become Orthodox?


--John (a.k.a. harmon3110)

John,

I don't become Orthodox because I love the Pope. I don't become RC because frankly they are boring.

Dan L

John:

I don't become Orthodox because I believe Pope Benedict XVI is "the first among equals". I don't remain Roman Catholic because I love the Divine Liturgy.

JP

Wouldn't those who join Orthodoxy have to, basically, profess that Benedict XVI is a heretic?

That's an issue a bit more important than ecclesiology, and more than enough for me to stay in the Byzantine Catholic Church no matter what position I hold on how "Orthodox" that Church should become.

Besides, given:

1. the current standing of the filioque discussions between SCOBA and the USCCB (see it at SCOBA's website).

2. Pope Benedict's assertions which, taken to their logical conclusion, essentially states that the Ecumenical Patriarchate already acknowledges any primacy Rome could ever reasonably demand.

I then would ask:
Who is to say that a prospective Greek Catholic who goes Orthodox might find himself in communion with Rome again within his lifetime (assuming he's like me, under 40 and expects to live to 80)? If that was the case, his entire switch looks a bit silly.

I am aware that Greeks have thrown rocks at the Pope, that an Orthodox in one or another part of the US accused a Roman Catholic of sacking Constantinople, and that the Roman Catholic accused the Orthodox of removing the filioque from the Creed. There's plenty of bitterness within Catholicism and Orthodoxy if you go looking in the right places. None of should necessarily affect what the hierarchs do.

Dear Harmon,

Let me paraphrase Chesterton. The problem with "uniatism," as you put it (I wouldn't use that word), is not that it has been tried and failed. It has been found difficult and not been tried.

There must be a way to be Catholic and Orthodox (that is what a Byzantine Catholic is), simply because that's the way things used to be, for the first 1000 years.

Christ is Risen!

Yes. When one converts to Orthodoxy, one makes a profession of faith renouncing his former beliefs. For a Catholic who converts, this includes the papacy.
No, because the entire Orthodox Church will never unite with Rome ... If an Orthodox patriarch or patriarchs unites with Rome, there will be a schism because some of their subjects will refuse to go along with the union, and the rest of the Orthodox Church will still be there, too ... so there will always be an Orthodox Church for that convert to remain in if he so chooses.

Photius

Indeed He is risen!

Good point, Photius. Limiting our outlook to the US simply for simplicity, even if SCOBA as a body decides the Pope isn't a heretic, I am sure that one or another jurisdiction - canonical or not - will remain out of communion and anathemize SCOBA.

That still in my view poses a dilemma for the convert: does he stay with the Eparchy he joined or does he switch to the new one?

And combining this logic behind the original logic for the question "why bother reclaiming your tradition, why not just become Orthodox?", the implication is that not only that to be authenticly Orthodox one would have to leave SCOBA, but that a Byzantine Catholic who really wants to return to the fullness of his tradition ought to do so by joining a non-SCOBA jurisdiction.

I simply don't follow this logic.