www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization What do we have to fear? and how do we overcome it?

John, as with many things, Chesterton says it like it is.

Diak,

Since I'm not a Lutheran I do not agree with you. It's easy to dismiss an issue or to obscure it by blaming everyone or no one. By such comments decisions don't have to be made and no one is held accountable.

Nonsense, we have nothing to do with 1054. It's time for the Orthodox and the RCs to get over it. And it's time for both to stop blaming us for their problems.

The Eastern Catholics are not the reason Orthodoxy and RCs don't get together. We are simply their excuse. It's time to grow up and take responsibility for what we do and not feign blame for what others do. We are the ones who don't have the courage to grow and so we blame the mean old RCs and Orthodox for our failures. It is time to grow up and evangelize.

If the RCs and Orthodox are shamed by our growth, good. If they are not shamed by it, it is still good for us and the Kingdom of God.

At best, Diak, you have missed the point.

Dan Lauffer

Actually,

Both Roman Catholics and Orthodox have to come to realize that we are poorer without each other.

We are like a dog with three legs, it might be able to get around but it doesn't do it very well. We are a poor witness to the power of Christ because we can't keep our own house in order.

Christ, wants us in union, Christ prayed that we would be in union, it is us (collectively) that thwarts the prayer of Jesus.

1054 sucked... plain and simple, but it was pride on both sides that caused it.

The sack of Constantinople also sucked, it was something that should have never taken place.

Both of these are have their basis in the first sin, which is PRIDE.

Simply we start by praying for unification. Perhaps it should be added to the litanies

We pray for the unification of the Church, both East and West, and we pray for healing and reconciliation forChrist's Church, we pray to the Lord.

John,

This is a splendid idea.

"Simply we start by praying for unification. Perhaps it should be added to the litanies."

I wonder if a litany like this may already exist. If it does it desparately needs to be added to the litanies at every divine liturgy. If it does not one needs to be developed and added. Our whole purpose is unity and we should grow as quickly as we can so we can show to both of our parents that a united Church will thrive.

Dan L

Dan I dont understand your points about Roman Catholicism. The Byzantine Catholic churches have their existence because they decided to enter into commmunion with the Latins. Accordingly, I cannot understand the point you are trying to make about the Church of Rome. Could you please explain...?

We exist because God called us into existence. We existed prior to 1054. Our existence is not dependent upon Rome or Constantinople. The united Church exists in us whether or not Rome or Constantinople existed today. We are the living remnant of a united Church. Our theosis is still in process but our existence is dependent upon a vision, that the United Church can thrive on earth even before heaven. That is the operating principle out of which we must operate or we don't deserve to exist.

Don't we, after all, pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If we do we ought to live as if we believed it. Was Jesus' prayer in John 17 just pie in the sky?

Dan L

Dan,

Christ is Risen...

We did exist prior to 1054 (really an artificial date because the fracture was in place before then)

However when the leaders of both sides excommunicated each other that communion was shattered. The problem now is that we must work very hard, on both sides, to remove the obstacles to reunification.

Understand that there are those on both sides who don't want reunion. The reasons are petty and human. I would say Pride, leads the way, but there are others involved i.e. greed, lust.

Now, lets put a name to the instigator of this terrible schism between East and West. Satan. He fears a united church more than he fears all the legions of Angels, because a united Church is something that he cannot deal with. He is powerless when we are united because he cannot use faction against us.

Remember Christ's prayer in the Garden, when he asked the Father for unity. It is because he saw the schism, and he knew that Satan would manage to keep us apart. A unified Church would have (In my opinion) kept Islam at bay.

What we are actually talking about is a Both/And statement. Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox should be meeting and praying together. The more we do this the better chance we have of healing. Since we cannot partake of the Eucharist in each other's Churches then we start praying Matins and Vespers together. Make it a weekly thing, with the intention for reunification and healing between us. Once we start doing this, then hopefully our prayers and our petitions will be granted. Once we do this the Bishops on both sides will see that we share a heck of a lot more than what divides us.

Dear John,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

You asked that we pray for unification in our litanies. Prayer is always a great idea.
However, I have always felt that we are praying for unity:

�For peace in the whole world, for the well-being of the holy churches of God and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord�.

What we could do is to continue to pray for union, and strengthen our prayers as we are facing a most important time for the future of our Church.

Deacon El

Deacon,

Forgive me for not remembering that.

My take on it would be to pull it out as a specific intention. If it gets lost on me as part of the whole, it might make a bigger impact on us as we are worshiping if it were highlighted.

This way our minds are lifted up specifically at that point for Union.

John Gibson

Dan, I would likewise say you have missed the point. I will go through this again.

If you will read my post again, it has much less to do with history and much more with metanoia and moving on. You recall that you brought up the point that what Cerlarurius did was inexusable. You also pointed the finger at others and specifially stated "they" had the problem, not "us".

I was merely trying to put in a perspective that many Orthodox and Catholics share, not that it need be rubbed in, but rather what the historical perspective and reality is SO THAT we may move on.

My main point, perhaps missed, was this, which I strongly include myself in the sinner and stubborn category: If metanoia, mutual charity and love are missing the point, I suggest you reconsider Christianity and specifically the Eastern Christian tradition.

I think here, rather than on the other thread, is where I intended to post some words by Archbishop Joseph Raya, of blessed memory.

https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000077;p=3#000030

Diak,

On this specific subject of responsibility for reunification it might be useful to state precisely, not in generalities, of what are we responsible.

I would suggest that you are correct but it would be rather more useful to be specific. My list would include:

1. Not being forceful enough about our need to cease being timid about our mission.

2. For many of our BC brothers and sisters repentance needs to be made for our near refusal to evangelize.

3. Metaoia is needed for the endless posts which point fingers at others for changes in a liturgy they haven't seen.

The rhetoric in your last sentence reminds me of the fellow who wanted to kill a tiny fly on the wall. A fly swatter was sitting next to him but instead he went to the garage and got a sledge hammer. He broke out a large section of the wall. He didn't care. After all it was his house and the fly was a mere interloper.

Dan L

Dan, in all sincerity I believe your last statement was the rhetoric, accompanied by a non sequitor simile. You said I missed the point, I reiterated, and you conclude with a rather strange anecdotal simile which is implying something, although I am not sure what.

It is difficult for all of us to not point the finger and place the problem elsewhere as your concluding shot to the posters on the liturgical changes belies, #3 and your categorization of "our BC brothers and sisters" in #2. I think I would have stated "including myself", and I would like to see anyone who does not fit into #2.

As far ignoring history goes, no doctor assumes to treat a patient without understanding the history of the patient, what the wounds are like, etc. As painful as it is, and as we recognize as did our late Holy Father, we all are guilty, and without that recognition we will get nowhere, except with more finger-pointing.

John certainly got the point, and Chesterton said it much better and much more succinctly than I ever could.

And I maintain that all of this nice talk about renewal, evangelism, etc. will be empty and dead without precisely that: metanoia, mutual charity, and love. We do what we can but we can always move closer to communion with God, always try to be more kenotic in our lives, love and relationships.

We will evangelize like no one has before when people see we are what we claim to be. And not from programs, bullet points, vision meetings, etc.

Pray for me that I can better fulfill those, as I am a sinner, and that our own little evangelical efforts we have underway in our area will produce good fruits.

Neil, I like this so much from Archbishop Raya that you posted recently:

I hope and pray someday I will at least try to begin to live these words out. Saydena, who was perhaps the greatest living model of Byzantine evangelism in our own time, pray for us.

Diak,

So be it. I'm not interested in a discussion that goes nowhere. Your point that "all have sinned" is obvious to any Christian not just those who are Byzantine. Since that was your only point. Then we agree.

Dan L