www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization What do we have to fear? and how do we overcome it?

In other words, to be "Orthodox" means to deny that any Grace exists in any other group of "Christians" and that any expression of faith by any such group or any member of such group, must be renounced before acceptance into "Orthodoxy"?

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... the entire Orthodox Church will never unite with Rome ... If an Orthodox patriarch or patriarchs unites with Rome, there will be a schism because some of their subjects will refuse to go along with the union, and the rest of the Orthodox Church will still be there, too ...
Photius

This part I understand. It is precisely the story of 1596, the Union of Brest, followed by the Union of Uzhorod.

The Orthodox Churches do not seem to be able to work together. Is the Church to be organized based on ancestry/ethnicity? On national boundaries?

They seem unable to organize themselves in an "American Orthodox Church" or a "Ukrainian Orthodox Church", without using additional adjectives and adverbs to describe themselves.

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In the face of a determinded mindset ---

to look at the divisions of Christianity and insist that the "other" is indeed "other" and is a different faith, requiring renouncing of professed faith ---

is the only way forward, toward "Ut Unum Sint",

the historical route, the route of Uniatism?

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The hierarchs, at Balamand, have said no, ---

but the hierarchs seem to me to be those who keep the Church divided.

I remember the people in Romania, when Pope John Paul II met with Patriarch Teoctist, calling for unity in the Church.

Is the only way forward, toward "Ut Unum Sint",

the historical route, the route of Uniatism?

I don't see any other way.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

For any practical purpose, I am not sure the Orthodox believe any grace exists in some of the other Orthodox.

To all members

We must remember to be respectful to each other. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church both profess to be one holy catholic and apostolic church. This church founded by Christ is tragically separated by schism. In the gospel of Saint John Our Lord prayed for the unity of all who believe in Him. (see John 17: 20-26) Keep in mind that our Lord prayed this prayer the same night He instituted the Holy Eucharist, and surrendered Himself for the life of the world. People who are opposed to unity must reflect deeply on the commandment to love one another as I have loved you. This is how the world will know that you are my disciples, by your love for each other.

SCOBA includes only a small part of the Orthodox Church. Most autocephalous Orthodox Churches are not present in America, and many of those eschew the ecumenical movement and are not in dialog with Rome, e.g., the Patriarchates of Jerusalem or Tbilisi. Also, there are jurisdictions present in America that are not members of SCOBA, e.g., the Patriarchate of Moscow (I don't know why) and ROCOR (which was invite to join, but declined because she did not consider herself an American Church, and is temporary in nature).

That aside, surely even if all the SCOBA Churches united with Rome, improbable as that is, many bishops would revolt and remain Orthodox.

SO, your hypothetical convert would always have an Orthodox Church to remain a part of.

Photius, Reader

May I ask a simple enough question? Is no one looking at the "laundry list" of things that a convert to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism must renounce before being joined to the Church? That would give you a very clear idea of what, exactly, the Orthodox Church expects in regards to belief.

Then you could get on with all the other things the Orthodox Church would expect, many of which, I might add, the Eastern Churches do already...the fasting periods, for example, and the nature of the fast, and those things would be spelled out, rather than set as a minimum...then of course, fasting longer than one hour before Holy Communion, facing East, etc....


Gaudior, thinking a list will be enough to start with...enough for several centuries of dialogue at this rate

It is unfortunate but it must be accepted that the union of all Christians is impossible. Some of us (myself included) may not appreciate Photius frankness but he speaks the truth: There will always be an Orthodox church for those who do not wish to re-unite with Rome (and believe me there will always be many who do not wish to re-enter communion with Rome).

Ezekiel tells us that God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked man but rather wishes that he repent. Paul tells us in Timothy amongst other places that God wills all men to come to the truth and be saved. However, neither of these things happen do they? Sometimes...a lot of the time...what God wants is not what man's free will permits.

Jesus might have prayed for us to be one, even as He and His Father were one. Yet, as John's gospel tells us elsewhere he did not need anyone to teach him about man. He knows us, he knows the reality of our condition and so he preaches in Mt 10:34-36 and Luke 12:51-53 that he has not come to bring peace but division and he acknowledges the reality that from this point onwards a man's enemies will be found amongst his own household.

When God founded the Church he knew that things would end up this way but in His Divine Mercy he pitied us and ignoring what we would do with His love He offered Himself to us anyway. He does so still...how merciful is our sweet master *smiles*

We must work, we must try to dialogue and find common ground and unite as far as humanly possible. However, at the end of the day we must also be realistic. Where a deep wound has been made one cannot truly expect not to scar and there will always be scars, no matter how well Ecumenism progresses.

I don't believe Photius DOES speak the truth about there always being an Orthodox Church if the rest of it reunites with Rome. Unity on that level and on that scale would, to be honest, require the decision of an Ecumenical Council, I firmly believe.

If an Ecumenical Council declares Communion is restored, than anone who does not agree with the Council will be, in fact, in schism, and no longer part of the Orthodox Church. Thus, there may be MORE schismatics formed, but they, by virtue of the schism that created them, will no longer be Orthodox. However, this is true ONLY if an Ecumenical Council agrees to restore Communion.


Gaudior, in peace

The conclusion then, at least as far as I can discern, is that we must work toward union with all of our hearts even if earthly union seems unlikely at best.

My wife and I were not led to Roman Catholicism because they tend to compromise too much with the Protestants. We weren't led to Orthodoxy because they really aren't very serious about our Lord's prayer for unity. The only door the Lord had open for us is Eastern Catholicism. I'm not convinced of the efficacy of any other Church and I am entranced by the Orthodox liturgy of our Church and the unity that she seeks among all Christians of the true faith. Hence, we are convinced that our efforts toward growing this Church is our vocation even if our own bishops aren't convinced of the efficacy of this effort.

Life may indeed be difficult as M. Scott Peck observed. However, it's much much easier when one settles some basic questions and sticks to them.

I'm not troubled by the flaws of the Orthodox or of the Roman Catholics. I'm not even really troubled by our own flaws. My only concern is that I follow the lead God has given me. I'm am, after all, to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

Dan L

It is true that Christ knows our fallen nature. He suffered and died to restore that fallen nature to its former beauty, dignity and holly ness. It�s true that we will never reach the fullness of this restoration in this life. However, we still strive to renounce sin and evil in our lives and come into a deeper union with God. Separation is a result of our fallen nature. Therefore, we must struggle to overcome the sin of separation as we do with all other sin.
Also, I am well aware of the deep wounds that Catholics and Orthodox have afflicted on each other. The Byzantine Catholic Church has received wounds from both sides. As a Byzantine Catholic, I could feel bitter and resentful to the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Church. I simply chose not focus on the sins of the past and the shortcomings of the present. It�s far more beneficial to focus on the rich and beautiful gifts the Holy Spirit has poured out upon the both churches. Furthermore, it is better to fix our attention on the wounds afflicted on our Lord instead of the wounds afflicted on us. �Upon Him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by His stripes we were healed.� (Isaiah54:5) Christ has the power to heal every wound no matter how deep. Also, if he can reconcile us sinners to His father, He can reconcile us to each other. All we have to do is cooperate.

Since part of evangelization is bringing people to Jesus, as John Paul II reminded us, the gospel of the paralyzed man tells us about that man's friends bringing him to Jesus. They overcame every obstacle till they put him in the presence of Christ. Although they did that for his physcial healing, the actual encounter proved to be more rewarding since he had his sins forgiven and rose restored in body and righteouness. When do what we are called to do, Jesus will do what he can do. It's great synergy. Perhaps each of us needs to prove ourselves "neighbor" as the good Samaritan did.

During these difficult times the best place for us to be is in Church, offering prayer and glory to our God, and participating in all of the services offered to us. As we continues to prepare ourselves during the rest of this period of Holy Great Lent, and reach the midnight hour of our Lord's Holy Resurrection, let us piously understand that Christ our Lord died for us so that death itself may not have any power over us, and may no longer be considered as a punishment, but an act of joy and everlasting life. Christ, our loving Lord, gave us a second birth at His Resurrection, so we have all become His faithful "children of the Resurrection" - in others words, children over whom death has no sovereignty.

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they die any more; for they are equal to the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (St. Luke 20:35:36). Let us then be our Lord's faithful children, in practice, not just in theory, and seek to be like little children in humility and with love. Love for God and love for one another. Seeing that we are the children of the Resurrection of our Lord, we are then instantly transformed into the children of the Living God. Children of the Resurrection are children of the Cross and the empty grave, over which death has no more power.

Faithful children of the Resurrection love God, love to pray, and love to be in the house of our God! Then again, the children of the Resurrection love their neighbors, and at every hour want to share in the glory of the Resurrection with others. When we, as faithful children of our Lord, receive the light of the Resurrection in our hearts and minds, let us hold it with love and with faith, as well as offering to our God glory, honor and worship.

Let us all prepare spiritually to participate in the Holy Week services and the Passion of our faith of our Lord. Let us also remember that it's time to partake of the Holy Mysteries -Holy Communion - as well as to go to Holy Confession. Being ever faithful children of our Lord we should make every effort to go to church, when we may walk with our Lord to Golgotha, and stand next to Him during His hours of Suffering, as well as confess Him as truly our Lord and God, as did the Centurion.

The Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ is a glorious day, and our Lord is desiring us to be His faithful children, we should all humbly draw near to the Resurrected Christ with joy, strengthened by the knowledge that through Him we have, and shall have, everlasting life.

May all of us, the true and loving children of our Living God, behold and taste the Glorious Resurrection of Christ our Lord with joy, and with peace!

Christ Is Risen!

Truly He Is Risen!
http://www.serfes.org/spiritual/April2003.htm

I came across the above while looking for a post Alice made in Town Hall. I have been going around all week saying "we are children of the Resurrection." I just love when the Lord gives us confirmation that it is his Word being spoken.

That is how we evangelize. Believe and He will do it through us. WE can only be willing but HE is more than ABLE!

John,

I believe you are right that fear holds us back. We fear not being accepted by the RC's. I think we need not fear that. Most RC's don't know we exist. Those who do are divided between those who think we are weird and those who think we are beautiful. But why fear any Latinization. I believe we ought to make decisions based upon our own identity. We are, or should be, pre 1054 Orthodox in communion with Rome.

We also seem to fear any reprimand from the Orthodox. We need not fear that either. I believe what Michael Cerularius did in 1054 was inexcusable. I believe that their frequent whining that "Uniates" ought not to exist ought to be ignored.

I believe we make decisions not to infuriate people but neither should we concern ourselves with their ignorant criticisms either.

I will say it again and again and again, we have the only mission for the Church that is fully consistent with our Lord's vision. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We need not ever apologize. Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics need to repent for their stubborn resistance to reunite. We don't have that problem. We aren't the problem. They are.

Let's grow the Church so the others will be envious and seek our help, as they should have been doing for centuries now.

We are not the problem. They are.

Dan L

As equally inexusable was what Cardinal Humbert did, as equally inexcusable was the Fourth Crusade and 1204, and the lack of support for the defense of Constantinople against the final Muslim onslaught of 1453, in which the West sat and watched the final fall of Constantinople, and in essence opened the door for the Islamic invasion of Europe.

As a Greek Catholic with his liturgical and historical home in Constantinople, I am not going along with that last post. It is simply not reality, historically or presently.

All of us are the problem, without exception. Anyone who claims they are not the problem, that it is with someone else, is darn well part of the problem. All of us are passionate sinners.

May we all find the road of repentance, metanoia, mutual charity and love. May the example of our later departed Archbishop Raya encourage us all with his life and work and may he intercede for us.

Once a London paper decided to print essays about what was wrong with the world.

GK Chesterton submitted this:

Gentlemen,

I am.

Sincerely

GK Chesterton.