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Good catechisis would solve many ills in the Church. Catholics are today easy pickings unlike many protestants who know their stuff, when the sects and cults come knocking at the door. However if the USA was the leader that others followed, the rot set in a very long time ago, so it is going to be very difficult to reverse this. I am now in middle age and went to a Catholic school and I was one of 2 or 3 (at a push) in my class who went to Mass. If I had not been from a practicing Catholic family I would have also known nothing about the faith.

Newman tells us, "To be immersed in history, is to cease to be Protestant." Then too having ignorance of Church history brings vulnerablity to evangelical Protestantism. There in lies the problem. Too many Catholics and Orthodox were not educated in the truths of their Church, their faith, and it's history. There was truly something to all the nun's that cracked yardsticks to get the kids attention and make them learn their Baltimore Cathesism in the Roman Catholic Church. It did teach many of the truths of the faith, although it did not necessarily give the ECF history and they did not push learning the Bible, reading Scriptures as they should.

So a vacum was left. Many 'baby boomers' left their faith not knowing what they were leaving. When one is ignorant of the Truths and Fullness of Christ they become 'dull' it just become something that is done because that is what the family does, and leave without ever being led to make a personal decision to follow Christ, then they are empty.

That is the way so many Protestants 'steal' people from their faith. As parents and Godparents we are only able to help our kids live their life in Christ for so long. We are always a very present witness, but, at some point they must say YES to Jesus themselves. That is what I think so many Protestants are saying when they say 'are you born again'. As Orthodox and Catholics we are born again when we enter the waters of Baptism and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

YET, AT SOME POINT WE AS ADULTS MUST SAY YES TO JESUS CALLING US. WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONCIBILITY FOR OUR FAITH. All to often we want to be fed, like a baby with the bottle. Scripture is very clear on that and we become bored/dull to the God:

Hebrews 5:

11
7 About this we have much to say, and it is difficult to explain, for you have become sluggish in hearing.
12
Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, (and) not solid food.
13
Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child.
14
But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil.

We have failed to make sure they know/knew they were receiving the solid food of God - Word and Flesh. So too many left without ever knowing what they left.

Pani Rose

John,
The location I got the information from is currently down, but I would be happy to supply them when it returns. In the unfortunate event that they would not be available by the time this conversation comes to a close, I will retract what I said as being unsubstantiated.

Hi Wondering !

No problem. I would be interested in reading those sources when they become available again because religious demographics are an interest of mine.

Take care.

-- John

As a former Catholic turned Mormon returned Catholic, I'd like to comment on some of the reasons the Mormon church is growing:

• "Every member a missionary" - that's a phrase that's often repeated. Each person, from a very young age, is taught to be on the lookout for possible future converts, to "friendship" them and to send in their names and addresses when they're ripe for being approached by full-time missionaries.
• Full-time missionaries -- Young men, and to a lesser extent, young women who don't have a marriage prospect in sight, are encouraged to become full-time missionaries for a period of 1 to 2 years. Retired couples are often drafted into service as well. Girls are taught that the best husbands are young men who have served a mission. Missionaries receive several weeks of intensive training at the Missionary Training Center. This training prepares them to present an 8-part standard series of lessons on their version of the Gospel -- complete with visual aids, videos, etc. Parents start saving for their sons' missions at birth. Sons of a poor family will be sponsored by members of the ward (parish).
• Emphasis on family - Whatever happened to the Catholic bumper stickers "The Family That Prays Together Stays Together"? It's been supplanted by Mormon bumper stickers reading "Families Are Forever."
• Testimony - Each first Sunday of the month is "Fast and Testimony Sunday." Members are encouraged to stand up in "sacrament service" and bear their testimony that "Jesus is the Christ" and "Joseph Smith was a prophet." Children begin doing this in Sunday school as early as 7 years. By the time they're ready to be full-time missionaries, these young people can speak their testimony with total conviction.
• Ongoing Education - Following "sacrament service" is Sunday school for everyone. If you're not teaching, your listening. Education at church begins with preschool and everyone is involved until they're in the grave. High school students also attend "Seminary" early in the morning before regular school. University students have "Institute" once a week. Each year a 2-week roadshow of professional speakers hits major metropolitan areas for a series of "Know Your Religion" seminars and workshops -- all free to anyone who wants to attend. Each level of teaching has professionally produced lesson plans and class materials that come directly from Salt Lake City. Nothing is made up "on the fly" locally.
• "USP - Unique Selling Point" - They claim, as ALL Catholics did at one time, to be the One True Church, complete with their own version of apostolic succession. They accept no other church's baptism as valid. They claim that the only road to the "Celestial Kingdom," the highest level of heaven, and the only level where families will be united forever, is through their temple ceremonies and remaining faithful until death.

In short, they are ORGANIZED. They have a UNIFIED PLAN and stick to it. Nothing is improvised. When proselytizing they all speak the "PARTY LINE" with CONVICTION that comes from having heard the same "truths" repeated over and over again.

Very good point about the organization of the Mormons. Evangelical Christians are much the same way in their approach.

You know, I find it interesting (and a bit sad) that those who have the Truth -- the Faith which Christ gave to the apostles -- are hardly evangelical at all. When I was a Protestant, I cannot remember EVER hearing a Catholic speak of his/her faith or seeing an Orthodox come to my door wishing in a spirit of love to inquire about my spiritual condition. Why is it that the only people that you find at your doors are the heretical?

Fr. Thomas Loya told me at a conference a couple of years ago that either the Byzantine Catholic Church in America is going to learn to evangelize or she will not exist in 50 years.

I couldn't agree more, and that will be such a loss to this country. Please don't take this the wrong way, but Western culutre simply doesn't hold a candle to that of the East. I only wish I had found these riches 20 or 30 years ago.

Where were the missionaries from the East where I live?

Brother Ed

Ed,

Fear thus far makes most of our meager efforts counter productive. Fr. Loya is quite right though he may have been optimistic when he said "50 years".

Sophie,

I was fascinated with your report. I really don't think it would be that hard to get a control group together to do what the Mormons do or something similar. Bishop John led a pilgrimmage of the icon of "The Mother of Mariapoch" to Annunciation this last weekend. I asked him a question about evangelism in Byzantine Churches. He said that it was both an internal move Godward and an external invitation to others to come with us. That's not an exact quote but I believe it accurately reflects what he said.

I'm most grateful for your post.

CDL

Brother Ed,
I first want to clarify that I believe missionary work within our own country is of great importance. Outside of that, I wonder how you came to find Catholicism. Obviously, someone had planted a seed. Of the converts I know, some of the reasons include
-A man who stopped going to church was asked by a friend why he didn't consider Catholicism before giving up his search. He respected the friend as a good person and did not want to be rude and say he wouldn't consider it, so he looked into it to be able to tell the friend why it was not a possibility. He returned with more questions about the faith, and through the guidance of his friend and his studies, he eventually converted.
-A woman went to Mass with no prior explanation and was converted by the True Presence in the Eucharist. She left asking how to become Catholic.
-A man was preached to by missionaries as a child and always fostered a love of the church and snuck away to it whenever he could. He converted officially after he was found secretly reading the Bible.
-A man was married to a Catholic for over 40 years and as he approached old age and reflected on his life, he realized that he needed to get his spiritual life in order as well. The example his wife had set throughout the years convicted him of the truth of Catholicism.
-A Baptist slowly sought to learn more of his faith, a the deeper he went in history the more Catholic he became. He eventually became convicted through his studies of history and converted.
-A child who was raised in no church began attending the Catholic school, which was the catalyst for the parents to return to the faith.

These are only a few of the people I know who converted. I point out the various stories because most of them were not converted by missionaries, but by those close to them. The example that Catholics set in their daily lives made it possible for these people to look into Catholicism. It was not some great moment, but a slow eroding away of their prejudices and misunderstandings. I think it is important for people to realize, like Sophie said, that each of us are missionaries in our daily lives and that this is a very important role. It does not negate the need for dedicated missionaries, but it does underscore that dedicated missionaries are not the only ones doing missionary work.

The short story is this:

I was crusing the Internet when I came upon a link that looked interesting. Upon clicking on it, I found myself in a Catholic forum, similar to this one, where I charged right in to show them how wrong they were and how Presbyterian Calvinism was God's truth.

But -- lo and behold

For the first time in my life I met Catholics who knew their Faith and had answers from me. And answers from the Bible no less!! They challenged me and wouldn't take my nonsense.

At the same time, a number of other facets of my belief system all kicked into play and it was like putting a gigantic jigsaw puzzle together over the next 2 1/2 years.

And here I am....that's the short story.

But I sure do wish I had landed in the Church a long time ago.

Brother Ed

And where was this Internet website, Brother Ed?

It was called "Une Fides" (One Faith) and was run by a private individual. He had to close it down about a year and a half ago.

Brother Ed

John:

What is your understanding of this statement?

Numerically speaking, the Catholic Church has to exert, or exerted, tremendous efforts just to maintain her membership at 24% of the total U.S. population for the past 40 years.

Let us assume the 40-year span covers the statistical years 1965-2005. Let us assume further that the total U.S. population in 1965 was at 200 million and at 300 million in 2005, or an increase of 100 million.

If Catholics comprised 24% of the 1965 total U.S. population, then there were approximately 48 million Catholics in 1965. Maintaining this 24%share, there were 72 million Catholics in the U.S. by 2005, or an increase of 24 million Catholics (or 24% percent of the 100 million increase in the total U.S. population).

While the percentage share of Catholics in the total U.S. population remained "static" the actual numbers tremendously increased by 24 million or so from 48 million in 1965 to about 72 million in 2005!

Maintaining the 24% share is a feat in itself by (1) reproduction [around 1 million infant baptisms annually], (2) conversion [about 100,000 to 150,000 yearly], and (3) immigration [no verifiable data] NET of (1) deaths and (2) conversion to non-Catholic denominations.

If this ratio holds for the next 40 years or so, the U.S. will have between 90 and 100 million Catholics by the year 2050 when the total population is projected to hit between 400 and 500 million.

(By the way, some demographers put Catholics at 25% of the total U.S. population, to account for a percentage of the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S.?)

Amado

It tells me three things.

1. The Catholic Church in the U.S. has increased its numbers. Otherwise, it would not have maintained its proportion of 24% of the American people as the American population has increased.

2. The Catholic Church is also losing numbers. Otherwise, its proportion of the American population would have increased over 24% because most of the increase in American population has been due to immigration from mostly Catholic countries (Latin America, the Philippines and the Caribbean).

3. The greatest mission field facing the American Catholic Church is . . . the Catholic Church. Otherwise, there would be both higher numbers and a higher proportion of the American population that is Catholic.

-- John

John:

I think your #2 contradicts your #1.

Otherwise, the percentage could have slipped below 24%.

Yes, the Catholic Church in the U.S. did lose plenty of members in the years immediately following Vatican II but, overall, the Catholic Church has a NET gain after the 40-year period from 1965.

Today, it appears the Catholic Church in the U.S. is gaining much more than she is losing.

By being able to maintain a 24% share in the total U.S. population, the Catholic Church progressively added members to its rolls (net of deaths and conversion to non-Catholic denominations), although not sufficient enough to increase her 24% share in the population.

This explains the net increase of Catholics in the U.S. (24 to 25 million net gain) in the time span of 40 years from 1965 to 2005.

Amado