www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News U.S. Romanian Catholic Eprach Forbids the Participation of his Flock

Snoopy,

Bishop John's statement makes very clear that those who participate in this war (soldiers who are "doing their duty") incur mortal sin, due to the unjust nature of this war. (Read it!)

The statements of other bishops (including the Holy See) have not, on the other hand, definitively stated that those who participate incur mortal sin.

Martin

From Bishop John's Lenten Message:

"Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory.

Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder. Direct participation in this war is the moral equivalent of direct participation in an abortion. For the Catholics of the Eparchy of St. George, I hereby authoritatively state that such direct participation is intrinsically and gravely evil and therefore absolutely forbidden."

Martin

Dear Martin,

If you would review my post from very early in this thread, you will see that all Catholic US Soliders, of whatever Church, fall under the pastorial leadership of the ArchDiocese of the Military (US), specifically ArchBishop O'Brien.

Therefore, Bishop John's Letter does not apply to them.

The ArchDiocese has a standard teaching that Soliders are to act withing the boundries of 'Just War'

For Company Level soliders (enlisted, and Company Grade Officers), they have a responsiblity to follow orders to the extent that
1. Non Combatants are never targets of action.
2. Prisoners are treated justly and with compassion

For Field Grade Officers ( Major-Colonel)
1. Same as above
2. Plus actions should be planned to avoid or minimize non-combat casualities.

For General Officers and Civilian Leadership
1. All of the above
2. Plus a responsiblity to correctly determine if the war itself is just.

Just to be perfectly clear. No Catholic Pastorial Leader with responsibility for Catholic Soliders has said or implied that Soliders taking part in this Military Action, even to the extent of firing on and killing enemy troops, or accidentally inflicting civilian causalties, incur Mortal Sin.

So say otherwise would be false.

Yours in Christ.

-brendan

(Former Army Officer with lots of experience dealing with the Chaplaincy Corp )

Brendan,

You are correct that members of the military fal lunder the Archdiocese of military service, but only in the pastoral sense not the juridical sense.

Another point for all to keep in mind is that Bishop John's letter is only binding on the people in his Eparchy and not the whol eof the catholic world.

He is my bishop, and I support his right to say what he said. He rules the Eparchy, and acted within his canonical rights.

Peter

It is not so simple. Jurisdiction of the military
ordinariate is PERSONAL, so faithful of military
dioceses remain under territorial jurisdiction
of their respective hierarchs too.
Of course, Bishop of Canton has no power outside
US, but Military Archbishop has full personal jurisdiction over all troops wherever they are.

Sincerely,
subdeacon Peter
(a historian researching, inter alia, history of
Greek-Catholic military chaplaincy in Polish
Armed Forces)

"From Bishop John's Lenten Message:

"Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory."

reply:
If the war WAS against "the Iraqi people" as the bishop has said, he would probably be right in this case. But this war has been declared against one man and his regime not the people. This much is clear.

So, I suppose as long as the members of that Church aren't waging war against the Iraqi people (who are going to be freed as a result of this war), they are not violating their bishop's decree. Unless the bishop means to defend the tyrant Saddam Hussien and his murderous regime?

Trusting In Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Armenian Catholic Christian
www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/ [geocities.com]

An interesting report on a statement by His Holiness the Latin Patriarch I happened to come across.

A report from Reuters/Vatican (I don't know if that means both the Vatican & Reuters, or the Vatican office of Reuters.

And now Zenit.


Here is the (now corrected) reference:

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=33137

Voila.

"for Peace for the world, let us beseech the Lord"

Herb

Hello:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very explicit in this regard.

Even soldiers on duty have the obligation to resist their orders to fight a war if they think they are morally wrong.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Friends,

This weekend I heard a pastor talk about the need for respect, the need for peace and the need for understanding. What I'm trying to understand is how you can have peace with a man who murders his own citizens? How you can have respect for a man who has the wives and daughters of his own citizens raped to keep them all in fear? Or, how you can have a mutual understanding with a regime which has used chemical weapons on their own men, women and children and regularly uses torture to keep them in submission?

These are questions those who preach "peace, peace" never seem to address. There is a time for peace AND a time for war, or so the Breath of God tells us. As I mentioned before, I have a few Iraqi-Amercian families (of Armenian descent) in our parish (there are over 15,000 Armenians living in Baghdad). One of these families risked their lives to escape from the Hell-hole Saddam has made of that country. As one of these Iraqi men told me a few weeks back, when Saddam and his regime are thrown down, there will be a cry of freedom in Iraq like there has never been before!

This is the message oft repeated by those who have escaped the clutches of Saddam and have the freedom to speak out against him. It is also the message that is most ignored by those who call for peace in the face of such extreme dehumanizing conditions. It is as if they would have the Iraqi's continue on under Saddam's tyranny. I just can't understand this way of thinking.

Trusting In Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Armenian Catholic Christian www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/ [geocities.com]

(who proudly served in our nation's armed forces in the first Gulf War.)

dear Friends and with the greatest respect:

It occurs to me that perhaps the anti-War stance of the Pope of older Rome, His Grace the Eparch of Canton, His Grace Emmanuel (aux. Bishop of Bagdad), etc. has something to do with that ancient (pre-Augustinian) pacifist/non-violent Tradition of early Christianity, where when persecuted by the evil empire of it's day (Rome), Christians resisted non-violently for 300 years and were delivered from our adversity and adversaries by God. (Like the holy martyrs of Sebaste?)

Alternatively, perhaps it has to do with them (i.e. the Hierarchs) discerning that this particular war does not fulfill the theological conditions concering a ius bellum, cf. the Catholic Catechism:

Perhaps they thought that the UN inspections were progressing (though not without their difficulties) - therefore there were other means and it is reasonably arguable that we have not come to "the last resort".

I really don't think that the Hierarchs are (as some would accuse them) pro Hussein, or deluded about what kind of person or regime is S. Hussein, or are fuzzy headed knee-jerk liberals, etc., etc.

"Peace be with us" (Qurbono of Addai & Mari)

Herb

Washington Post Article: Prelate Reassures Catholic Soldiers - Service in Iraq War Sanctioned [washingtonpost.com]
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 2, 2003; Page A28

Excerpts:

The archbishop responsible for Roman Catholics in the U.S. military has assured them that they can serve "in good conscience" despite opposition to the war in Iraq from Pope John Paul II, his cardinals and many U.S. bishops.

The March 25 message to Catholics in uniform from Archbishop Edwin F. O'Brien, head of the Archdiocese for the Military Services, was prompted by a letter from the bishop of a tiny branch of the church who said fighting in Iraq is a mortal sin.

The contradictory pronouncements are the latest sign of deep divisions among Catholics over the morality of the war. Vatican officials argue that the U.S. invasion does not meet the conditions for a just war elaborated by Catholic theologians since the 5th century. Catholics who support the war say that the church's job is to explain just-war theory, but that applying the theory is a matter of individual judgment
...
That is the tack O'Brien took in his rejoinder. "Given the complexity of factors involved, many of which understandably remain confidential, it is altogether appropriate for members of our armed forces to presume the integrity of our leadership and its judgments, and therefore to carry out their military duties in good conscience," he wrote.

-----------

Editor\'s Desk: Differing Opinions [catholicherald.com]

Excerpts:

Pope John Paul II has called the war with Iraq a "crime against humanity." Vatican Radio and the Jesuit monthly Civilta Catolica have openly questioned President Bush�s motivation for waging war.

On the other hand, Archbishop Edwin O�Brien of the Archdiocese for the Military Services said in a March 25 letter to his priests that members of the armed forces should carry out their duties in good conscience because they can presume the integrity of the leaders who decided to go to war in Iraq.

"It is altogether appropriate for members of our armed forces to presume the integrity of our leadership and its judgments, and therefore to carry out their military duties in good conscience," he said in the letter.

Archbishop O'Brien's letter said the moral justification for the invasion of Iraq likely will be debated long after the hostilities cease. "It is to be hoped that all factors which have led to our intervention will eventually be made public and that the full picture of the Iraqi regime's weaponry and brutality will shed helpful light upon our president's decision," he wrote.

-----------

Click on the links above to read the entire story.

Dear Friends,

So this fellow says that what the Pope and other bishops have condemned is not really to be condemned etc. etc. etc.

This reminds me of Humanae Vitae in which Pope Paul VI condemned artificial contraception but which individual Catholic Bishops' conferences and theologians contradicted and mollified in a number of their interpretations of the Pope's words.

But apart from that, if the Catholic Church cannot speak with one voice on such an important moral issue as the war with Iraq, what kind of leadership is it providing?

In fact, Catholic U.S. soldiers have been fighting in Iraq oblivious to what Catholic Church leaders are saying about this conflict.

That is a shame.

But even if they had an opportunity to form their conscience by taking into account the views of the Church hierarchs, would they not be confused by the "on-again, off-again," positions announced?

Or is what the Pope and the Catholic bishops have to say, this way or that, irrelevant to the everyday lives of many Catholics?

Or is it just all so confusing?

Alex

Alex,

I don�t think that one can compare the current debate on the Just War with the controversy surrounding Humanae Vitae. Humanae Vitae was presented as an unchangeable moral teaching. In the current situation, Pope John Paul II has spoken only to his belief that the current effort by the Allies to liberate Iraq by removing Saddam Hussein does not meet the Just War theory. The Holy Father has not spoken definitively on this subject, which does allow Catholics to come to varying conclusions on this issue.

I also do not think that the varying opinions by Catholic hierarchs means there is no moral leadership on this issue. When the Church speaks definitively we are called to follow. But when there is doubt we are called to heed the voice of our hierarchs, pray over their words, and use our own conscience to make a decision.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Certainly, there is a difference between the two.

But how was "Humanae Vitae" a presentation of an "unchangeable view?"

It was not a definition, ex cathedra, of a moral teaching - such has never happened in the history of the Catholic Church.

A future Pope, as theologians have said, can change what was contained in Humanae Vitae.

Certainly, bishops' conferences in certain countries responded to it and some watered it down so much so as to, I believe, changed its original intent.

Also, it is no secret that the majority of Catholics on this continent and elsewhere ignore Humanae Vitae, prompting one theologian here in Toronto to once comment that "Those Catholics who ignore Humanae Vitae, do so in good conscience, and so are not outside the Church." (And what kind of double-talk is that?)

In addition, I consulted with moral theologians, two in particular, who told me that they would never refuse the Sacraments to those who, in good conscience, could not bring themselves to obey Humanae Vitae.

There is more, but I will spare you . . .

Moral issues are always capable of question and need to be arrived at via a spiritual process of prayer and introspection - to be sure.

I'm just suggesting that perhaps what the Church's leadership has been saying is another example of a chasm between the bishops and the people - much like the issue of Humanae Vitae and its aftermath.

But really - the Pope says the war with Iraq is a crime against humanity and the fellow you quoted above says that Catholic U.S. soldiers may discharge their duties in good conscience.

Hmmmm.... I'll have to think about your point that the Church is showing consistent moral leadership after all . . .

No offence to our bishops or to the Pope.

Perhaps it's a language thing. Crime against humanity . . . BUT Catholic soldiers can discharge their duties in good conscience anyway . . .

"Private! PUt that prayerbook down and get your sorry butt on this Blackhawk - NOW! There's a freakin' war on or haven't you been watchin' CNN?"

"Sir, yes, Sir!"

Moral dilemma resolved . . .

Alex

Alex,

Humanae Vitae was presented to the Church in the form of a papal encyclical. Encyclicals far outrank the press releases of the current Holy Father with regards to teaching authority. Also, Humanae Vitae was presented as a review of a consistent teaching and not something new. The current controversy over �Operation Iraqi Freedom� is about the whether this specific action qualifies as a Just War and not one of whether there can ever be a just war.

There is no way I can compare the worst interpretations of Humanae Vitae (a general teaching on morality) with any positions (pro or con) of how the Just War Theory can be applied to the current situation (the application of a general teaching to a specific situation). The two are apples and oranges (or pirohi and holupki).

There is also no way there will ever be a black and white answer to every question that faces us.

Finally, I think that your example was below your usual standard of taste. Any soldier who had moral reservations about participating in Operation Iraqi Freedom had the opportunity to seek reassignment before being sent to the Middle East. Clearly, Pope John Paul II would have spoken the same words even if the United Nations Security Council had voted to enforce its resolutions with military force. He held the same position in the first Gulf War that expelled Hussein from Kuwait.

Admin