www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Exiting the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church

Dear Cathy,

Are you suggesting that the liturgical prescriptions of the councils are irreformable? Are you further suggesting that the Catholic Church is not the true Church because some Catholics kneel on Sunday?

Monomakh & Etnick --

Get the duct tape, my head is about to explode!

Cathy

"In ten years, the Ruthenian Church will be dead. Twenty, tops."

Latin priests have been telling me that since I was 10, I am 34 now so they are wrong three times over.

Fr. Deacon Lance

An aside, to any bishops or chancery folks who read this:

Do you see how your efforts at revision are dividing the Church, causing crises of conscience in good-hearted people? Stop it!

It's never to late to do the right thing.

Dear Fr. Deacon Lance,

I hope I'm wrong. Do you have evidence to show that I'm wrong? I'm all ears.

Nevertheless, that's all secondary to the question being discussed, which is whether one ought to become Orthodox because of the state of the Ruthenian Church.

Not Another head explosion!!!!

Seriously, I've been Orthodox for almost two weeks now. And guess what? My tounge didn't snap off when I took communion, I don't see the word heretic anywhere on my body, and I've been sleeping well.

Dear Cathy,

If you intended your statement to be taken literally, you should try SS. Cyril and Methodius in Cary, NC.

God bless,

Chris

Hey Karl,

The problem is that from an Orthodox point of view, what the Liturgy expresses is what the Church believes. I think this is a significant difference from Western theology. Eastern theology holds that the Liturgy constitutes Sacred Tradition along with Scripture, the Ecumenical Councils, and the writings of the Fathers. From the point of view of Eastern Christianity, to significantly tamper with the Liturgy shows a lack of respect for Sacred Tradition and a spirit that is alien to the fathers of the Church.

Yes the Liturgy evolves and changes, slowly, dynamically, and according to the Spirit. But to have a committee make changes, many of them radical and arbitrary, and impose them on the faithful is almost equivalent to a committee coming in and changing the Canon of Scripture. When hierarchs decide that they can create a new liturgy at will, they show that they have no true regard for the Sacred Tradition, no matter what else they might say. Peace in Christ,

Joe

Dear Joe,

I agree with you on the significance of the liturgy. In fact, I agree with just about everything in your letter.

The difference would be in a connotation of the sentence: "Yes the Liturgy evolves and changes, slowly, dynamically, and according to the Spirit." How is the "according to the Spirit" manifest? I have a feeling that it's most often in things like committee meetings. Messy, dirty, sloppy, and thoroughly reflective of the incarnational nature of the Church. Which is not to say that the Ruthenian IECL is an expression of the Spirit. I don't think it is.

Nevertheless, liturgy problems weren't what led you to Orthodoxy, were they? I thought it had more to do with doctrinal issues, which I attribute to reading too much continental philosophy Were liturgical issues on your mind over the last few years as well?

Karl,

The Liturgy was not an issue for me in converting because the Melkite Church's liturgy is the same liturgy as the Orthodox Churches. The only difference is that in the Melkite liturgy, the Pope is commemorated. Had something like what is going on in the Ruthenian Church happened in the Melkite Church, then that would have hastened my conversion, though it wouldn't have been the deciding issue, at least not by itself.

Yes, I think that the most proper reason for becoming Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Muslim, Shinto, or whatever, is that one believes it is the true faith, or at least the most true expression of what God has revealed to us. Now as to continental philosophy, we'll have to start a separate thread or talk in private if we want to get into that . Peace in Christ,

Joe

Once upon a time there was a Ruthenian Bishop named Elko. During his reign things became VERY latinized. Churches resembled latin churches (steeples, no icon screens, statues, stations of the cross, etc). Things got so bad he was suddenly recalled to Rome. He died an auxillary Roman rite bishop.

From that time on things have gotten much better, but his spirit seems to live on. The bishops seem intent to wreck what has never been completely restored.

I think a meeting of all the Eastern bishops in the U.S. (Catholic and Orthodox) would maybe give the misguided bishops some food for thought. What do you think?

Since this is a topic and thread that is not involved directly with the discussion of the Revised Divine Liturgy, and its content, I transferring this thread to the Faith and Worship Section.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Etnick, that's a wonderful idea. Something like that happens on a small scale at the Orientale Lumen conferences.

I would caution making too gross of generalizations. The most authentically Byzantine parish I have ever visited, and the one more than any other that keeps me Greek Catholic is St. Elias, a Ukrainian Greco-Catholic parish www.saintelias.com [saintelias.com] The UGCC has two Byzantine (i.e. not Eastern branches of paramonastic orders) monasteries in the US, along with a strong traditional Studite monastic life in Europe. The UGCC has a patriarchal synod, and respects its received liturgical tradition via the Ordo - I posted the acta of the Synod regarding that recently on the Forum. I would say you can find all of those latinizations you have listed also still present in some Ruthenian parishes.

So, I think we've established part of the problem -- inconsistencies in ALL Byzantine Churches. I think that's the frustrating part, it varies by parish and by priest. For six or so years you have an "orthodox" priest, then he's moved and replaced by one who doesn't celebrate the Red Liturgikon, but rather the chopped-up Green Book.

What then? I still do not hear an answer to this...just lots of examples of exceptions. When I go into a Ruthenian Church I'd like to have a somewhat similiar experience -- not something totally different. How do we overcome this scenario, and who's responsible for correcting this?