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SAHMommy,

Welcome! I am an Orthodox catechumen, too. I was raised Roman Catholic, and I spent a year as a Byzantine Catholic. If you want to discuss things in private, feel free to send me a private message.

In answer to your question: I think the biggest difference between the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox is that the Orthodox Church is fully Orthodox but the Eastern Catholic churches are not. Orthodox Liturgy is full and complete; Eastern Catholic liturgy (at least, what I have observed) is shorter and abbreviated. The Orthodox Church believes that the Bishop of Rome is only a first among equals; the Eastern Catholic Churches believe (at least, officially) that the pope has universal authority and jurisdiction. The Orthodox Church has preserved and practiced its Tradition continuously; the Eastern Catholic Churches have to follow whatever the pope desires (such as on married clergy, the filioque, other "latinizations" etc.), and the policy of the popes can and does change over time. In short, I find the Orthodox Church to be Orthodox; but I find Eastern Catholicism to be Catholicism in Eastern form.

I know many people here at this Forum would disagree with that opinion. I used to be one of them, and I respect their beliefs. But my thinking has changed: based upon what I have experienced and observed and learned. Nevertheless, I intend no polemics, and I apologize if I have offended.

-- John

This is the most important issue. What is your conscience telling you? I struggled for a long time, but eventually had to leave Catholicism because I realized that I simply did not believe what the Roman Church claimed about itself. Since then, I've come to realize that there are a whole number of teachings of Catholicism that I think are wrong. I told myself that I would not be a dissenting Catholic and I meant it. Please know that my prayers are with you. I know that this is tremendously hard. And as everyone here has said, take your time . Peace in Christ,

Joe

Joe's post said my thoughts and prayers also. God bless you and keep you and guide you.

-- John

The questions I have are: Are Eastern Catholic required to accept the Immaculate Conception, as taught by the Latins? Are Eastern Catholics required to accept the teachings on birth control and divorce/annullment? Are EC required to accept things like Fatima?

Officially, Eastern Catholics are required to accept all the official teachings of the Catholic Church. That includes the Immaculate Conception. However, many Eastern Catholics understand that doctrine via the Orthodox view of the purity of the Theotokos.



Yes.



No. Neither are Roman Catholics. Private revelations, such as Fatima, are just that: private revelations. They are not substitutes for the public revelation which, according to the Catholic Church, ended with the death of the last apostle: St. John the Evangelist. Hence, Catholics (Eastern or Roman) are free to believe or reject Fatima and other approved private revelations.

Hope this helped.

-- John

Dear SAHMommy,

I know of no less than three churches in Montgomery County, MD. You have the Greek Orthodox Church of Saint George in Bethesda, and two in Potomac, the Carpatho-Russian Church of the Holy Resurrection and Sts Peter and Paul Antiochian Church. The latter two have service almost exclusively in English. Saints Peter and Paul having just completed a magnificent edifice.

In the District, there are no less than four that I know of, St Sophia and then Saints Constantine and Helen Greek Orthodox Churches in the Northwest part of the district, along with Saint Nicholas OCA Cathedral, and Saint Gregory the Great Western Ortodox Mission. As far as Northern Fairfax and Arlington Counties in Virginia, I can start naming off the churches there. So there is a variety of churches from the area you are near.

I am familiar with most of them, serving in at least two of the ones in Montgomery County and one in the District when need had it that I be in the District on Church business. Most can have there contact and phone information obtained through the official websites of the respective church jurisdictions.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Yes, I am familar with the Greek churches. When I said there was only only church in my county, I meant one Eastern Catholic. I've been to St George's on many occasions, as my father's family goes there. (yes, dad's family was Orthodox, mom's family was Catholic).

We certainly have our problems, but being a "rudderless ship" in my opinion is not one. The life of our church is grounded in our worship. It is guided and lived in a real and tangible sense. It isn't abstraction, it isn't theory, and it isn't given to the whims of the present moment. Those are all things which I think can take one off course and leave one grasping to find direction.

Lex orandi, Lex Credendi.

SAHMommy,

I do not wish to enter into a debate with others, but I do not believe (and there are many Eastern Catholics who join me) that ECs are bound to the Latin understanding or belief in papal supremacy (this Pope has said the RC church cannot expect an understanding of the papacy beyond the first millennium's of any Orthodox in communion with Rome) or of the Immaculate Conception (it was promulgated recently and was not done through an ecumenical council, so whatever binding force it has is only in the Latin church--but this is a moot point as the east believes Mary was born free from the guilt of Original Sin just as the West does [not to mention every other person was as well!]). Divorce and contraception are just not being dealt with right now. There is no precedent. Relying on the calls from within and outside the church to look to the Orthodox for our model in all things, I have no internal moral problem with doing so in this regards. I reiterate that I do not wish to argue these points and am only offering my personal perspective. Fatima and Lourdes are non-issues as no one is required to believe in them and their messages should not be found in EC churches.

Is Annendale the church you are familiar with?

My interest would not be to debate these points, and I have no vested interest in them. However, speaking as an outsider, it is unclear to me how one could remain in communion with the Church of Rome and not accept all its dogma. That would include all of the post schism councils considered by the western church to be ecumenical. That is really the foundation of communion, and to deny particular points of dogma would seem to me to be tantamount to a dissenting position. I must wonder in a situation like that, what exactly is the tie that binds if one can disagree on such fundamental points.

Regarding Papal supremacy, I did read the quote I think you're referring to. I also however read this quote


In a reply from then Cardinal Ratzinger to the Melkite bishops. The link is here. https://www.byzcath.org/faith/documents/melkite_initiative_2.htm

SAH Mommy,

You bring up some interesting questions. Like "Wondering" I do not wish to engage in a debate here on the particulars of each of the issues. I will only say:

1. Regarding the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, Eastern Catholic jurisdictions have in fact received this teaching as part of the deposit of faith by virtue of their communion with Rome, but it is to be understood and celebrated in the same manner as Orthodox Christians (various liturgical texts, most especially for the feast of the Conception of Saint Ann). For Orthodox Christians, the idea of Mary being conceived immaculately, free of the effects of the ancestral sin is NOT officially condemned as error (as some mistakenly assert) but rather is regarded as theologoumena which an Orthodox Christian can choose to believe or not. (Such a view is supported by no less an Orthodox authority as Bishop Kallistos Ware in "The Orthodox Church".) The fact that this belief was highly developed in the Syrian tradition of Orthodoxy (mostly in reference to the Mary-Eve typology) - one of the three great theological streams of Christianity - is indicative of the weight of tradition in its favor. As Eastern Catholics we could not deny this doctrine as heretical nor could we relegate it to the level of mere theological opinion. But we are free to view it in terms of our own Eastern soteriological (non-Augustinian) framework which places less emphasis on the preservative redemption of the Theotokos and more on her objective and subjective holiness throughout her life. From the first moment of her existence she is the "All Holy" - the fitting Paradise of God. She is the New Eve unbound by the "knot of disobedience". The theological opinions of some Orthodox theologians or individual bishops vary on this matter.

2. Regarding birth control, the Catholic teaching on artificial birth control is the same as that of the Orthodox Church's teaching for 2000 years. This was reaffirmed by Patriarch Athanegoras when he issued his letter in support of Pope Paul VI's Humanae Vitae. The depth of unity between the classical Orthodox and Catholic views on this issue was illumined especially through the development of Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body, which has rich Eastern and patristic roots. What has changed within Orthodoxy is pastoral practice, leaving the full application of the teaching to the discretion of pastors, confessors and spiritual fathers. Nevertheless, the tradition still stands even though it is not fully practiced.

3. Divorce and annullment discussions are somewhat beyond my area of competence. I believe that the Eastern Catholics did practice ecclesiastical divorce for a time, but have now gone over to the annulment system as practiced by the Latins. I am unclear on how the annulment system can be reconciled theologically with the Eastern view of the mystery of crowning and canonical marriage. That, of course, does not mean it is not possible to reconcile, only that I do not know how to do it personally nor have I studied the issue thoroughly.

4. Fatima and other private revelations are NOT in any way shape or form binding on the faith of Catholics. As private revelation (EC/RC's believe with the Orthodox that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, John the Theologian), the Catholic Church can only help to discern and designate these "prophetic" revelatory events as "worthy of belief" in so far as they support and do not contradict the deposit of faith and are deemed as credible.

Hope that clarifies a few points. God bless!

Gordo

Greetings and Blessings....

If I may "chime in" with this discussion, I find that other then the "historical" theological challenges within the Church, between both "East" and "West" after the major "split" took place, the Roman (Latin) Church decided to become more modern (if I may boldly represent) as the decades passed, where as the Eastern (Orthodox/Byzantine) Church have maintained their historical traditions and teachings. The majority of us realize this here. Today, we see within the Roman Catholic Church such blasphamous liturgies and virtually non-holy representations of Roman Catholic parishes/communities. This was recently represented within this forum.

The prelude to my presentation here is this, we are "full-time" RV travelers and have visited many parishes throughout America, both east and west coasts as well recently completed a three month trip up through British Columbia, The Yukon Territory and the "final frontier"..Alaska! Everywhere we have celebrated the Holy Liturgy on Sunday (note here never missed a Sunday Liturgy!) we have seen, on a "sliding scale" a high reverent Liturgy to a Sunday Liturgy where the Priest dispenses sacramental triditions in the preparation of the Holy Eucharist! Fortunately, the small Mission Parish Church, where we came from has a devout Pastor and presents excellent teaching! But, unfortunately, he is one of the "few" who I can say shares his Roman Catholic faith as a Holy Priest and Pastor!

My dear Mother (now passed on to the Lord) was raised within a "duel" Catholic household. Her Mother was Roman Catholic and her Father was Greek Catholic. Both had come to the "new world" from Czechoslovakia and migrated to West Virginia. Because of my strong Catholic faith and always seeking to learn more, many years ago I realized the importance of my "Eastern" heritage. And, ever since then my love and appreciation for the Eastern Church (Orthodox/Byzantine) have become more and more inportant in my life.

Today, I too share with those here on this forum topic a way of "descernment" to grow closer to Our Lord by accepting (fully) either the Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic traditions and teachings. I find the postings above very facinating and (of coure) very interesting to say the least! I am so fortunate to have found such a "devout" method to share these thoughts with those who share the same!

Today, when I enter a Roman Catholic Church for Sunday Liturgy, I find no sense of reverence within those in attendence (in general). The lack of individual prayer preparation is replaced by talking and laughter from those seated around us. I see individuals chewing gum and or crossing their legs as though they were watching a "staged presentation." All of this has simply grown on me through the years as I tend to avoid all of these (pitiful) distractions. I know all I can do is simply pray for them! And, in my mind, I think back to when (only a few times) I had the wonderful opportunity to share within an Eastern Holy Liturgy (both Orthodox and Byzantine)! During those past experiences, I don't ever remember the "non reverence" of the Parish communities that I had visited. Maybe I am completely wrong here or does this kind of activity also take place, showing non-reverence, before or during an Orthodox or Byzantine Holy Liturgy?

Anyway, it has become through my personal study these many past years, the virtual acceptance of where the "true" Church really exists today...and it is truly in the East!

Looking forward to furthering this discussion topic!

May God Bless You Always!

....Ignatius....

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Ignatius, Well, one may encounter irreverence anywhere, I surely have.

But in Eastern parishes it has not reached pandemic proportions. That's about all I can say on the subject.

Michael

Greetings and Blessings Michael,

Thank you for your kind reply....

I did not think that irreverence was any issue within the Eastern Church community..Thank God for that!

Its my personal prayer life that constantly keeps me "afloat." I have a music background of many years and the Eastern Liturgical music is simply beautiful! Yes, I know there are "many" blessings to behold within the Eastern church community. My first experience with attendence at an Eastern Byzantine liturgy was back in the mid-1960's. Back then I was fostering a religious vocation and I had the rare opportunity to attend a beautiful Byzantine liturgy in Salszburg, Austria. I never forgot this beautiful experience! I was attending a European men's Catholic conference. I was told that they were Byzantine Monks from a monestary up on a high hill just outside of Salszburg. I remember vividly the beauty of this wonderful liturgy, of which I had never experience before! Since that early experience in my life I have grown to learn so much more! Since then I have experienced several Byzantine Liturgies as well as Orthodox. I have a good friend who is a Greek Orthodox Church member and was invited one time to their liturgy. Again, I truly felt the Holy Spirit move me to great length during this celebration! When we were back in West Virginia back in June, 2001, my wife and I had the opportunity to attend a Byzantine Sunday Liturgy. A family member had envited us that day. The small Byzantine church was so beautiful with large Icon images on the ceiling as well as on all the walls! It was like we were in Heaven! My wife remarked that she had never participated in a Sunday Liturgy where it was all sung with the congregation responses! Again, this was another wonderful experience! In between these paat experiences, I, personally, have attended other Byzantine Liturgies when I have had the opportunity. And in the mean time, I read and research everything I can get my hands on!

God's Blessings to you Michael!

....Ignatius......

Reading this and other similar threads, I feel the need to ask one burning question. It may be obvious to some forum members, but honestly it is not clear to me
I can't help wondering if Eastern Catholics aren't 'required' to accept papal supremacy, the filioque or the Immaculate Conception, if the expression and spirituality follows the East and not the legalistic Western practice then what exactly is it that keeps individuals Catholic rather than embracing the Orthodox Church? In other words- if you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, why aren't you a duck?
One more question comes to mind- the term "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"- is this an official term?
Thank you in advance for any clarifications.