www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Exiting the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church

"It is a shame that the younger group of BC's who understand theology will probably leave our church for Orthodoxy once this liturgy is put into place."

- From Cathy on another thread

-----------

Slava Isusu Christu!

I thought Cathy had an interesting observation that was worthy of a thread all its own.

For example ... our parish is full of people as you describe. Many of us stand during the liturgy. We have dozens and dozens of little kids around all the time. They do their poklons, kiss the icons and love to light candles. We have a patristics book club to read and learn from the Church Fathers. There is a full icon screen and the church walls are pretty well covered with iconography. There are converts, cradles and the curious. Lots of rite switchers too. Father uses the Red Liturgikon. Our landscape is native prairie grass and our temple rises from the prairie as the sun illuminates the day.

I think it goes beyond understanding theology. Our parish has a very distinct, complete and integrated ethos. We're an icon-in-progress, but we are progressing in our journey. Where the new recasted Divine Liturgy leaves our parish I don't know.

Whether college professor, truck drivers, electricians or stay-at-home-moms, our people experience authentic Eastern Christianity ever day. Our parish is more than a Sunday meeting hall. With liturgies, Matins and Vespers, our parish is alive.

Cathy, I believe you offer a key insight into the keyhole of the recasted Divine Liturgy quagmire -- one that I hope our hierarchs prayerfully consider. Otherwise, we run the risk of losing our best and brightest and repeating what happened with St. Alexis Toth and His Grace, Bishop Orestes (Chornock). Sure, this diaspora might be numerically less than the previous exits from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church. But ... there are less of us now and the drain will be the intellectuals who have come our way over the past few decades.

God have mercy on me a sinner.

In Christ,

John

Oooor...they leave for other Greek-Catholic jurisdictions.

Yes, John, my parish sounded similar to yours, except they pulled our priest and sent him to the hinterlands where his "orthodoxy" wouldn't bother anyone. We have sandboxes, a curtain, and were working our way through the Latinizations. A few of us stood for the entire Liturgy, and did prostrations during Lent. While our priest is a good and holy man, he doesn't have the "fire" that our previous pastor had for doing things correctly. Luckily our new priest sees the sense in continuing the Red Liturgikon, but I too wonder what will happen once the new liturgy takes over.

It's hard to have less, when you've been blessed with more. I understand that most parishes have never celebrated the Red Liturgikon, and therefore the recast DL may be an improvement in some cases. However, and that's a BIG however, what about the Red Liturgikon Parishes? In everything I've read here, or heard from people attending the MCI, there's no provision in this new Liturgy for the Red Liturgikon Parishes. Why not? We too deserve Pastoral sensitivity.

In all honesty, if there is not a provision for us and something "less" is forced upon us, I know my family will leave. And yes, it will probably be for Orthodoxy. I know that upsets some, but I am not willing to suffer week after week with a bad Divine Liturgy that we didn't even need. Albeit with some minor corrections, the Red Liturgikon is all we need.

And our people need to understand that we are not just a branch of the Roman Catholic church, but a church in its own right with its own traditions and services. The faithful need to understand that when Archbishop Judson had breakfast with Pope John Paul II, the Pope's instructions were very, very clear -- prove that we can be Orthodox in communion with Rome.

Just my oberservations...
Cathy

Would one of you please enlighten me, in a nutshell if possible, as to what the proposed changes in the Divine Liturgy actually are and why they have been proposed/enacted? Thanks!

Father,

If you do a search in this subforum you will find the changes discussed in detail. Some of things in the new Liturgicon are not changes in that they are new because some the majority of parishes were already doing, but changes in that they are deviations from the 1964 English Liturgicon (Red Book) which is what we were supposed to be following but haven't.

But in a nutshell the changes are : 1 verse antiphons with little litanies not taken, some prayers including the Anaphora are mandated to be taken aloud, new translation of some prayers, use of some inclusive language.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon:

Thank-you for the reply and directions. I'll go through the sub forum.

By the way, I am not a priest, just a very sinful member of the Laos tou Theou. I'm afraid if I were, I'd give all priests a bad name, Fr. Deacon! "Papaflessas" was indeed a priest and a great hero of the Greek War of Independence. His family were also next door neighbors to mine back in the Old Country.

This thread is correctly named 'Exiting the Ruthenian Rite' because there are those that will leave when and if the New Liturgy becomes official. However, at the end of the day, I stand by what I've written in other posts, and that is that it is the Ruthenian Rite that is leaving many people, it is the Ruthenian Rite that is exiting us. Fr. Deacon Lance correctly states that the "1964 English Liturgicon (Red Book) which is what we were supposed to be following but haven't." And now the moving away from this will become official.

And that brings me to this question which I just for the life of me do not understand. +JPII and Pope Benedict both have talked about reunificaiton with the Orthodox. How in the world do we expect to have unity when we continue to move away from Tradition? We don't even have unity with our own Greek Catholic Brethern, let alone with Orthodoxy. We should be a shining example that one can be both Catholic and Orthodox. Instead the BCA is out to prove that they are anything but Orthodox. I just don't understand this.

Monomakh

I am at least equally bewildered. If the Byzantine-Ruthenian jurisdiction were the unique form of Greek-Catholicism in North America, it might be understandable if people who felt seriously alien to the Malabarese tradition or the Ethiopian tradition might seek solace elsewhere when the Ruthenian tradition is in the process of self-destructing.

But the Ruthenian jurisdiction is not the unique form of Greek-Catholicism in North America. There are alternatives and almost anyone who uses this forum regularly knows what they are, where they are, and how to get in touch with them.

If someone joins the Orthodox Church because he believes the Orthodox Church to be the One True Church of Christ and is prepared on that basis to make her joys and sorrows his own joys and sorrows, well, Godspeed and please say a prayer for me every now and then. But if someone simply finds it preferable for quite secondary reasons, that is not a sufficient motive (and I would say precisely the same thing to someone contemplating joining the Catholics for quite secondary reasons).

Father Serge

Yes, I'm sure this is difficult to understand Fr. Serge, and believe me I don't take the matter lightly. I just don't know how to celebrate a bad Liturgy, when we've been celebrating the best for close to four years. You're lucky Fr. Serge, because no matter where you go, there you are. In that I mean, because you are a priest, and you understand how the Liturgy should be celebrated, you will always celebrate it that way. For the rest of us, we're at the mercy of the priest on the altar. In the Byzantine Church it's difficult to be a priest groopie, because when one is transferred it's often hundreds of miles away. (And it's funny to watch all of the "orthodox" Byzantine priests get moved farther and farther away.) Just ask the parishioners at St. George in Aliquippa & St. Anne's in Harrisburg what they're afraid of right now. I understand because I've been in that situation.


As Monomakh says, we're not leaving our church, it's leaving us. In my quest to stay Catholic, I've tried the Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church and they are still very Latinized -- holy water "dippers", girls serving at the altar & baptisms outside the Divine Liturgy. The Melkites are better, but still only one verse of the Antiphons & no little Litanies. I'm sure I could go through the list of Byzantine Churches and end up with 20 different flavors and intrepretations. Never mind our own Ruthenian Churches which can be like night and day, even though they are within miles of each other.

I just can't get my arms around what to do next. If someone could tell me where I could experience the full Byzantine Divine Liturgy and stay Catholic I would -- nothing would make me happier.

One Melkite priest told me recently that a woman at his parish said to him, "I'm looking for a new church, because this one won't be around for long." The priest asked her what churches she was visiting and she said, "Roman Catholic and Orthodox." He said she never mentioned the Ruthenian Byzantine Church just a few short blocks from her Melkite Parish.

JMHO,

Cathy

Dear Cathy,

Would you move from your home for the sake of good liturgy and remaining within the Catholic Church? If there were a good Melkite parish in Virginia, would you move? Would you come out to Homer Glen, in IL? To Barstow, CA, so you could worship with the monks at HRM? To wherever else liturgical flowerings are happening? Maybe you could move to Ireland and go to Fr. Serge's parish?

It is safe to assume, anyone who posts here in this Forum takes Liturgy seriously. Someone going through such angst doesn't deserve a smart aleck reply like yours. I wonder how flippant you would be if they told you your priest were being moved. I think your attitude would be very different.

Cathy

Dear Cathy,

You asked: "I just can't get my arms around what to do next. If someone could tell me where I could experience the full Byzantine Divine Liturgy and stay Catholic I would -- nothing would make me happier. "

I was trying to fulfill your request.

No flippancy, no smart-aleck-ness. Just a recognition that it is possible to experience the full Byzantine Divine Liturgy and stay Catholic. Here's another place: St. George Romanian Catholic Church in Aurora.

But what happens to all those in the Metropolia who really want to experience the mysteries of the Holy Trinity as authentic Eastern Christians.

Dear John,

Here's my prediction:

In ten years, the Ruthenian Church will be dead. Twenty, tops.

But that, in itself, is not a reason to become an Orthodox Christian. Schmemann warns in his book on the Eucharist of the danger of making an idol of the liturgy. The Church is not a community of worshippers, or rather it is, but it is more a community of believers. And the beliefs of Orthodox and Catholic are different. Note that the seven Ecumenical Councils deal little with liturgy, but a lot with belief. It is the beliefs that determine the Church, and the Church to which one should belong, not how gorgeous the liturgy is.

Am I wrong in this?

If the Catholic Church adhered to the seven Ecumenical Councils you'd have an argument, but they don't. Proof....The First Ecumenical Council in 325, Canon 20: On Sundays and during the Paschal season prayers should be said standing. BTW, this goes for both Roman and Eastern Catholics.

Stop in at your local RC or drive to the Parma Cathedral on Sunday, guess what you'll see -- kneeling!!!

Who will our Hierarchs believe if they won't believe the First Ecumenical Council which laid the ground work for the Catholic Church. We're just making it up along the way......