www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Question Re: Use of Lamb in the New Liturgy Text

I came across this diagram of the Lamb before it is divided up for communion at the Divine Liturgy from the New Liturgy text:

http://www.patronagechurch.com/Liturgy_Study/IELC/htm/32.htm

How many parishes currently do this? Do most use a seal now? On the next page of that site it describes how 2 of these sections are used for the communion of the people.

Are we seeing an indication that pre-cut particles may be phased out? Or am I being too optimistic?

Dave,

I can not speak of any tradition other than what is the norm for Orthodox liturgical practice. This is the way that it is done for the Divine Liturgy, with the lamb, and particles taken out of the prosphora during the Proskomedia. The lamb is divided at that the time indicated on the PDF for Holy Communion. I have never to date seen the use of "per-cuts" in Orthodox liturgical practice, and I am not sure if it is done outside of the Ruthenian liturgical practice.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father,

What is the norm in Orthodox liturgical practice regarding the rest of the prosphora? I mean, the Lamb and some pieces are removed from the prosphora during the Proskomedia. Is the rest of the prosphora cut up later during the Liturgy?

Dear Dave,

The rest is cut up into small pieces and blessed during the Divine Liturgy as antidoron. It is given to those after they commune and afterwards to the entire congregation at the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy. Nothing is given to waste there.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I've been checking the rest of the text of the New Liturgy and I haven't seen any indication about what to do with the rest of the prosphora. Perhaps it's an oversight? The text indicates how to divide up the Lamb which would pre-suppose the use of a seal. If you remove the Lamb (and the other pieces) during the Proskomedia then there's going to be bread left--the rest of the prosphora.

I'm hoping the New Liturgy text is proposing the return to a traditional use of prosphora. If so, there should be directions on what to do with the rest of the prosphora after the Lamb and the other pieces are cut out.

Page 266 of my notorious book informs the reader that :

There is no hint of the Antidoron, let alone the distribution of the Antidoron.

The reference, of course, is to the 12 October 2004 draft, p. 38. The draft simply took that diagram from the red book.

Father Serge

A similar diagram was included in the 1964 Liturgikon , in the Ordo and is also included in the 1988 UGCC English/Ukrainian Liturgikon. All three of these also include the administration of prosphora near the end of the Liturgy. We also give it after communion as well as at the end of Liturgy; when you use five prosphoras there is plenty for both.

Since the note for the administration of antidoron was already in the older Liturgikon and at least according to the draft does not appear in the New Liturgy, I wouldn't get my hopes up. Another reason to go with what we already have.
FDD

Yes, I would agree. Again, I ask, what happens to the parishes already celebrating the Red Book, and partaking of the Antidoron...are we then supposed to not "do" the correct tradition? What happens to us with regard to this matter?

Curious minds want to know....

Cathy

Incidentally, the Melkites do not use pre-cut particles.

Cathy

So will the practice of antidoron be restored for Ruthenians?

As soon as the use of prosphora is restored and 'pre-cuts' banned. In individual parishes - sure. Throughout the Pittsburgh Metropolia - not likely any time soon.

Pravoslavnyja Priests really use pre-cut prosphora?

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I have some questions that may appear insensitive for an Orthodox person to ask, and let me be very clear: I do not mean to offend anyone, nor do I have some sort of 'hidden agenda'. I just want to understand as well as my limited intelligence can some of the points of this debate...

There is a term being used here which I do not completely understand: 'pre-cuts'. can someone explain this to me please? Is this some sort of Ruthenian tradition which is not shared by me in the Greek Archdiocese?

There also have been some posts indicating a lack of antidoron, or something like that. Have the churches in the Ruthenian areas not have this tradition? What happens to the rest of the prosphora loaf?

Is there a different manner of preparing the Lamb in the Ruthenian proskomide that does not provide for the extra bread that I use for antidoron?

Again, I am just curious, and am trying to understand some of the points discussed here. Please forgive me if I offend anyone---it is not my intention as a 'guest among you' to antagonize my hosts!

+Fr. Chris

My Ruthenian church uses freshly baked prosphora. The priest does the service of Proskomedia before the liturgy. On Sundays the congregation venerates the cross and receives antidoran at the end of the liturgy.

I have been told that some churches purchase bags of diced up bread that are specifically marketed to churches to cut down on time and labor. I have never seen this.

"There is a term being used here which I do not completely understand: 'pre-cuts'. can someone explain this to me please? Is this some sort of Ruthenian tradition which is not shared by me in the Greek Archdiocese?"


When I was an altar boy many moons ago, at my Ruthenian parish, the priest would come in the sacristy as we were vesting, with a used margerine tub that had little cubes of bread in it.

He would simply pour those on to the diskos, and BANG! instant proskomidia. I kid you not! He did this every Sunday!