www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West splinter groups?

Are sedevacantist Latin groups the Catholic equivalent of Orthodox vagante groups? One of the issues I have with Orthodoxy is all the vagante groups and how they all claim these circuitous routes to succession or communion. I mentioned this to a friend, that with the Catholic church, you're either in or out, no questions. The friend then said that the sedevacantist groups and SSPX are the same thing. They all claim to be the real Catholic church and that the presence of both the sedevacantist groups or the "Orthodox" vagante groups do not change the authenticity of either church. Is this true?

Most SSPX adherents are not "sedevacantists" as such. They believe the pope to be the real pope and have set up no alternative. They are "schismatics" I would say, if one had to apply labels. Otherwise, why would their bishops meet with Rome to talk about reunification?

Also, who do you consider vagante Orthodox groups?

Where is Neil when you need him

Not really. The Latin sedevacantist groups are more similar to the extreme traditionalist groups within Orthodoxy. They claim they are the true church and nobody else is. Vagantes I believe are just saying they are part of the true church as well, not that the church exists solely in them. That I believe is probably the essential distinction.

There are also vagante groups that claim episcopal succession from both Orthodox and Catholic sources.


These claims are rather easily verified and/or discounted. I personally don't see an issue, nor does the presence of vagante groups trouble me particularly.


I don�t believe that�s the case at all. One could say it�s clear who is in communion with the Roman See, but by the same token it�s clear who is in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch. In the Catholic world there are various groups which even the Latin Church considers to have valid orders and true sacraments (Polish National Catholics, Old Catholics, SSPX, Anglicans who have had Old Catholic consecrations, etc.). That to me is actually a good deal more confusing than the situation in the Orthodox world.

Anyone not in communion with any of the Patriarchs listed in the website below.
http://orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/

Unfortunately, it is true that many groups attempt to use under false pretenses the term 'Orthodox'. I try to think of it as a compliment that there are so many who wish to try to be like us. (Otherwise, I might give in to frustration, and that would be very, very wrong).

The site you gave out is fine; basically I would use that site or the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the Americas (http://www.scoba.us/), which is also used to coordinate group efforts such as missions, charitable actions, etc.

The one thing that gets me with your statement that you have an 'issue' with Orthodoxy, is that we Orthodox cannot affect how others want to call themselves.

For instance, my wife was Roman Catholic and I almost converted. Suppose she and I decide to break with our Hierarch and set up "Chris and Lori's Orthodox Catholic House of God"

Would we be a splinter group of Catholicism, or of Orthodoxy? We're using both descriptors to 'cover our bases',and neither Catholic or Orthodox Churches really can do anything about the name we put on a shingle to hang outside our self-appointed 'church'.

So how does this situation mean you have an issue with Orthodoxy?

+Fr. Chris

Once again, I must caution against the use of SCOBA as a standard of Orthodoxy, as the Jerusalem Patriarchate, The Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR are, as of this time, not members, yet in no way does this affect their canonicity. Then again, there is the question of the various GOC Churches that do have fully valid succession. It is a murky area that in all reality is best left to the hierarchs to decide. Many here will remember when The Serbian Church had it's schism, yet it was resolved amicably, with retention of Grace bestowed being valid. The situation exists now within the Russian Church with ROAC, ROCiE(A) and ROCiE(V). Do they have valid succession, yes, do they teach heresy, no. Will it be resolved, yes, by the Grace of God. Methinks that we worry too much sometimes about wheteher our brothers are doing wrong when we should concentrate more on whether we are living right.

Like Father Chris, I view it as a back handed compliment when others try to pass themselves off as Orthodox.

Alexandr

Dear Alexandr:
Very well said. I couldn't agree more.
Ryan

Dear Ryan,
Isn't it nice to agree for a change?

Alexandr

Dear Alexandr:
Yes, it is.
In peace,
Ryan

Well, it seems that a centralized ruling body is better able to ensure that well-meaning laity are not fooled by these groups. For instance, on another board, a regular member, though a casual conversation, discovered that not only is her church not in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, but her "patriarch" is a registered sex offender. When confronted, she said they gave her a story about how all the churches in the US are all mixed up and nobody really acknowledges the others' succession or communion and showed her pics of her "bishop" being blessed by the EP and used those pics to claim communion. With the Catholics, it's so much easier. You look up the local archdiocsean office in the phone book and ask if the corner church is Roman Catholic.

Roman Catholicism has other issues. For example, a priest may be officially in 'good standing' with his bishop because his bishop either hasn't yet found out about wrongdoing or failed to do anything with regard to the wrongdoing even if the bishop did know. This is true for any Church, I suppose, but American Catholicism is a rare breed with regard to the nonsense some priests teach as authentic in the pulpit without any correction or comment from their bishop.

I'll be getting off my soapbox and climbing down off my high horse now.

Sounds to me you may be referring to the infamous "OK" known on many Orthodox boards.
Anyone with access to the internet can check the web site of The Ecumenical Patriarch or go straight to the Greek Archdiocese of North America and find a list of clergy and addresses of parish churches to verify or phone the Archdioces directly. Also it is easy to find other groups such as the Carpatho Russians, Ukrainians who are under the EO in North America with all the addresses and lists of clergy. Even the local phonebook is useful.

Yeah, I recently talked about this with my priest and I got it all cleared up.

At least you're in the United States where there's a lot of information avaible on the Internet in your language.

In Latin-America, many groups of this kind operate, and they do leade to confussion among the faithful and specialy those who seek Orthodoxy. Some of them function in the same places where real Orthodox churches exist (as is the case of Nezahualcoyotl and Ecatepec in Mexico City). That group for example, is good-hearted but has no valid Apostolic Succession (we investigated).

As a part of this confusion, the Catholic Church for example has issued directives declaring the Baptism of Orthodox churches around these places as graceless and converts from those Churches have to be "Baptized".