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Administrator's Note: This post and those that respond to it were moved from the thread "Revision is nothing new" into this new thread because they are not directly related to the points under discussion in that thread. Please remember to keep your posts as directly relevant to the topic under discussion as is possible or start a new thread.

You know, after talking to two cradle Byzantines today, this whole debate means NOTHING! Let me explain:

One was a lady I work with. She was brought up in the Ruthenian church. She got married to a Roman rite man in the Byzantine church. That was about the end of it. She's late 40's and hasn't seen the inside of a Byzantine church in years. Another CRADLE that just went ROMAN rite.!!!

The second person is very dear to me and is 75 years old. He cannot understand why I became Orthodox. When I try to explain about the PURITY of the Byzantine rite he just shakes his head. I then have to realize that I'm talking to a person that has never been to Vespers and wonders WHY I go every Saturday! It's hard to convince somebody that what I'm doing is right when he's never known the tradition!!!

Thats the problem... Young people gone, Older people that only know the latinized, chopped up, distorded version of the Byzantine rite who will take this new liturgy because they never knew the right thing in the first place, and need a church to be buried from.

Give it, oh, twenty years tops, and lets see what's left of the Greek Catholic church.

Ethnic: People in the Byzantine pews fall into three broad categories:

Unenlightened - by far the vast majority - 90%. Their only exposure to the Byzantine church is the "Mass" they attend, one a week, if they're lucky. Any other service would be foreign to them. All "latinizations" are normal because that is what they were brought up on, may partake in either stations of the cross or the rosary before Mass. Those "pink" sections in the "Mass" book must be for someone else, cause we never take them, otherwise mass would be more than 45 minutes. Never has beeen to an Orthodox church, cause they're too different.


Awakening - knows that there actually is more than Mass, attended a PreSantified liturgy a couple of time and liked it. Actually attended an Orthodox church, doesn't matter which one, and found striking similarities to their own Byzantine church, but liturgy was much longer, because they took all that optional stuff. Started reading the Light for Life series and has nagging questions about what goes on in our own church. Parish priest dismisses questions because he is pastorally sensititve.


Enlightened - Actually has attended all the services of the Byzantine church, not their own of course, but has had to travel extensively over a 4 or 5 state region because no parish, not even the cathedral parishes offer all of them. Attends an Orthodox liturgy every now an then for a refresing break, may actually consider conversion. Can identify all the latinizations in their own liturgy. Questions priests on the new liturgy, only to be told that the changes are superficial and the music just has a couple extra notes, but we're getting new pew books to help out. Priests don't like to talk with these individuals because they are put on the defensive, an uncomfortable position, usually because the position is un-defensible.

Are these broad generalizations, sure, and they may not put everyone in the best light, but I'm trying to make a point. Is this funny, I think not. It shows the great divide within our own church, the vast majority don't care because they don't know what is going on. They are not going to educate themselves on what we should be, and their parish priest doesn't feel it his job to do it. They will blindly go along with anything, that includes the revisionist liturgy. Sure, they'll stumble a couple of time, but they really won't give any thought as to why.

The other two categories are problematic. They are like the advanced kids in school, outgrown the normal curriculum, but since it is a poor school, they�re kept in the same class as everyone else. They know there is more, they want it, they want to share it, but the teacher says "everyone has to stay at the same level". What to they do? They've mananged to dig around and find out what is going on, and they don't like it becuase it is wrong.


Sine Nomine

I believe that I would fall mostly into this third category. It is a terrible place to be. I feel a strong pull toward the Orthodox Church. I feel that it is the only way to be truly Eastern. At the same time, I do not want to break communion with Rome. The revised Liturgy has forced me to give this serious thought--and the discernment process is not easy. This is tearing me apart!

You've forgotten the fourth category of people: Novus Ordo refugees. They think the Divine Liturgy is just a more ancient version of the Mass, and the issue is just one of different vocabulary words used to say the exact same thing. They apply the GIRM restrictions to the Liturgy and have no comprehension or internalized respect for the east's own traditions and rubrics.

How these people can attend an EC parish for years and not hear about the differences is beyond me. I blame the priests.

Recluse --

I feel your pain. I was Protestant for 25 years until I was challenged by Latin Catholics who actually (unlike 90% of Catholics) KNEW their faith and were willing to engage me in debate and show me that my presuppositions were based on falsities I had been taught for years.

I had visited an Antiochian Orthodox parish and had been going to Vespers for about a year before I discovered St. Ann's. I felt that I was getting the best of both worlds.

Little did I know.

And now....well, like you I feel the need to stay in communion with Rome and the office of St. Peter, but I am still desirous of being as Orthodox as I can be.

How can I think of leaving the Byzantine Church when I took an oath to obey the Holy Father and to be faithful to the Catholic Faith? I think God takes vows rather seriously, don't you?

Brother Ed

Altar Boy said:

"How can I think of leaving the Byzantine Church when I took an oath to obey the Holy Father and to be faithful to the Catholic Faith? I think God takes vows rather seriously, don't you?"

You won't be leaving the Byzantine church, so to speak. You will be entering the TRUE Byzantine church.

I think Pope Benedict would probably admire your loyalty to the Eastern church in it's purest form, since that's what he's calling for in the first place.

(Ruthenian Vladykas feel free to respond, I'm all ears).

No, Etnick, I am certain that Pope Benedict would not admire his loyalty were he to leave the Church.

I must say I find some of your posts distasteful. You've left communion with Rome; fine. But you seem to me to be proselytizing here, that is, looking for people who are upset about the revisions, and then telling them to become Orthodox.

It's kind of like a lion waiting to kill weak zebras.

Etnick --

I think you missed the point of my post.

It is about VOWS!!!

I know that in a day when the promises of men and the vows they make are practically worthless, this may be a hard concept to understand, but a VOW is made understanding that there is a price to pay for breaking it.

Nowadays, largely thanks to our so called "justice system" one can break vows, including the most solemn of them all, the marital vow, and basically face no music at all.

I don't think the Just One of the universe is like that at all, and it should have given you pause before you pulled up the tent stakes and set out in another direction.

Kapeeeesh?

Brother Ed

Since this thread has morphed into one about moving from one Church to another and not specifically about the Revised Divine Liturgy I am going to move it to the Faith & Worship Forum.

Might I make an observation as food for thought? People generally move from one Church to another for one of two reasons. They are either fleeing something they don�t like or they are seeking something they are not finding. Those who embrace a new Church because they have found something are usually able to transplant their roots and grow in the new Church. Those who flee something they don�t like almost always bring baggage. A continuing effort to list the faults of the old Church and comparing it to wonders of the new Church is a sign that there is an awful lot of baggage. Very often this baggage needs to unpacked and dealt with before the transplanted roots can start growing. If the baggage is not dealt with the roots will continue to take water but will not grow.

Ok, Point well taken. I'll keep my Orthodoxy in check from now on. I guess I'm a little overzealous sometimes. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Amen Brother Ed. But this brings up more questions. Let us say that the Byzantine Catholic Church no longer exists in 25 years. If I am still alive, do I have to be Latin Catholic? Also, since the Orthodox Church has valid sacraments and Apostolic succession, am I really breaking a vow? These are questions that I ponder in my heart.

Ukrainian Greco-Catholics don't bite. AND... most of them (at least in the US, UK, AU and CA) even speak English!

I didn't know Californians spoke English!

hehe - I think he meant Canada

Are you Catholic because of the Catholic faith, or are you Catholic because of Eastern tradition? The faith is the faith is the faith. Catholicism is its own Church, with its own positive doctrine. The Byzantine tradition is truly the heritage of the Catholic Church, because she is universal. But the role of Catholics of East or West is to integrate their traditions within the framework of Catholic doctrine, not to hold their traditions up and confuse them with Catholic doctrine. The West, because it is the largest, has a tendency to overstate itself, but I think the East can fall into the same temptation. Christ was not a Byzantine. He was not a Roman either. Neither were the Apostles (culturally at least, I know St. Paul was a Roman citizen). These distinctions will pass away eventually, but Christ and his Catholic Church will always remain.