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Things that make you go "hmmmm...." Of course, the headline is complete nonsense. "Married men should be ordained priests" is far more accurate. Gordo http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=27&si=1736029&issue_id=14967 Priests should be allowed to marry - cardinal
A SENIOR cardinal in the Catholic Church has raised the possibility that priests may be allowed to get married.
Claudio Hummes (72), Archbishop of Sao Paulo in Brazil and a strong candidate for pope in the event of a vacancy, gave his views to a Brazilian newspaper on the eve of taking up a top post in Rome that will give him charge over Catholic priests everywhere.
"Celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma of the Church," he told the Folha de S Paulo newspaper.
"Certainly, the majority of the apostles were married. In this modern age, the Church must observe these things, it has to advance with history."
But yesterday, only hours before taking up his post as Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, the cardinal was forced into a U-turn.
In a statement issued by the Vatican's press office, he repeated his point that celibacy was "a discipline not a dogma", but went on: "In any case, the norm of celibacy for priests in the Latin church is very ancient and rests on a consolidated tradition and on strong reasons, of a character both theological-spiritual and pastoral, confirmed also by popes."
The Vatican correspondent of Corriere della Sera newspaper described it as "extraordinary and without precedent . . . [that] the official who will have authority over the life and discipline of priests" should release such a statement "on the eve of his installation".
Clearly someone high up in the Vatican felt the same way, hence the climbdown. "They are afraid of opening up a Pandora's box," said one seasoned Vatican observer. "If you admit married priests, for example, what would you do about priests who get divorced? The Pope has no appetite for this sort of reform."
Nevertheless Cardinal Hummes has signalled his commitment to explore the issue. Even the Vatican diehards may not be able to shut him up indefinitely.
The cardinal's bombshell came just a fortnight after a special Vatican council, convened by the Pope, confirmed the Church's commitment to celibacy.
In theory priests may obtain permission to marry from the Pope, and Pope Paul VI often handed them out. But since the accession of John Paul II in 1978 such dispensations have become rarer and harder to obtain.
Celibacy was introduced by Pope Gregory VII in the 11th century to keep the papacy at a distance from the aristocracy - and, later, from the Lutherans.
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Gordo, We already have a thread on Cardinal Hummes's statement - look here.
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Ahhh...thanks. Missed that!
Gordo
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Quote: "In any case, the norm of celibacy for priests in the Latin church is very ancient and rests on a consolidated tradition and on strong reasons, of a character both theological-spiritual and pastoral, confirmed also by popes."
The norm of a married priesthood is even more 'ancient', having succeeded in the Orthodox Church which was one with the Catholic Church for a good 1000 years before the schism, continuing to this day.
As for: "If you admit married priests, for example, what would you do about priests who get divorced? The Pope has no appetite for this sort of reform."
How utterly ridiculous to use this as an argument for mandatory celibacy. It is the equivalent to "I'm not going to get a car because I might get into an accident"
What would you do about priests who get divorced? What do you do with active gay priests, pedophiles and womanizers now? Is divorce more of a scandal than these other sins? Are the majority of Orhodox priests divorced?
I'm not a radical Catholic pushing married clergy, but I have to admit as time goes on it appears to me there is no valid argument against it. I do believe the laity can handle it.
Just my occasional two cents.
Sam
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I get in arguments all the time on various blogs like Jimmy Akin's, Mark Shea's, etc... on the shift in discipline of celibacy for the Latin Clergy. It has even been implied that I'm a heretic for doing so. It seems that many believe that celibacy is inherent to the priesthood and that it was a discipline that existed in the Latin West since Sts. Peter and Paul for all clergy, especially since Our Lord and St. Paul were never married. Or they suggest that all married Latin clergy had to remain continent after ordination. I need some back up you guys! 
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I think there is a nuanced misunderstanding of the Latin Church's position on clerical celibacy.
In the Catholic Church, a celibate clergy and a married clergy do co-exist. However, the Latin Church mainstains a "mandatory celibacy" among her clergy and monastics (and religious orders) while the Eastern Catholic Churches enjoy "optional celibacy" for her priesthood only.
Is a married priesthood mandatory in the Eastern Catholic Churches? No! Some get married before ordination and some do not and, therefore, remain celibate throughout their ministry. But Eastern Catholic bishops and monastics (and members of religious orders) are, likewise, under the "mandatory celibacy" discipline.
The Latin Church is not arguing against a married clergy!
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Cardinal Hummes' clarification regarding that interview can be read here: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=99350Cardinal Hummes, 72, explains that "during the recent Synod on priests, the most widespread opinion among the fathers was that a relaxation of the rule of celibacy would not be a solution even to the problem of the lack of vocations, which is, rather, to be linked to other causes, in the first place the modern culture of secularization. This is clear also from the experience of other Christian confessions that have married priests and pastors."
He concluded saying that "This question is not, then, currently on the order of the day for ecclesial authorities, as was recently reiterated following the latest meeting of heads of dicastery with the Holy Father."
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Dr. Eric - while clerical celibacy is the norm there are certainly exceptions in the Latin Church, as she has ordained married former Lutheran and Episcopalian ministers as priests in the Latin Rite.
In fact, a former poster here on the Forum, Fr. Alvin Kimmel, is one of the most recent to have been ordained to the priesthood (December 3rd, many years!) and there are several more close to ordination.
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Gordo,
I agree that the headline is ridiculous, but it seems that even quoting the cardinal as saying "married men should be able to be ordained priests" is untrue and misleading as well.
He is not even advocating changing the present rules but, it seems to me, is advocating further discussion on the question.
Many people have observed that Cardinal +Hummes may be employing the tactic of saying something controversial, getting it buzzed about in the media, and then later clarifying or retracting the statement, knowing full well the media will probably choose to ignore the retraction/clarification. The damage is already done, and the hierarch is successful at pushing his agenda. Annibale Bugnini apparently did this with headcoverings for women.
You see? If +Hummes had to issue a clarification which basically nullifies what he said in the interview, then why the heck did he say it in the first place? Either he is trying to push his agenda by deliberately baiting the media and the faithful (and not-so-faithful), or he needs to hire an expert in public relations and have him or her filter every word he says. I have my own incling as to which is more probable.
Last edited by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos; 12/05/06 05:59 PM.
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The Latin Church is not arguing against a married clergy! I totally agree with that. But I believe the "pop apologists" and the "pop apologist" wannabes are against a married clergy! No offense to the "pop apologists" and "pop apologist" wannabes on the Forum. (I was a teen age "pop apologist" wannabe!)
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Dr. Eric:
Those who make the argument that mandatory celibacy was the complete story are ignorant of history. In Germany, the story is that when mandatory celibacy was decreed for the clergy, many who were married found that the bishops suddenly declared all clerical marriages invalid and that in Mainz the archbishop had to call in the civil authorities to escort him out of his cathedral after he decreed all clerical marriages invalid from the pulpit during Mass.
You might also ask about the scandal at the Council of Trent when the Scandinavian bishops arrived with wives and children with them and were denied entrance to that council because they were married. Apparently they were far enough away from Rome that no one really knew that this sort of thing was going on. And apparently the discipline of making "ad limina" visits hadn't been a practice so that this situation would have come to light before Trent.
If you want any corroboration about these things you only have to go to our Lutheran brethren and ask about the history of the countries from which the Lutheran reform came. In fact, I once had access to a very old Lutheran service book--printed about the turn of the 20th century--that contained the German history about clerical marriages being declared invalid as part of a long polemic against the Catholic Church.
Mandatory celibacy might have been a practice in the Mediterranean area because of the culture, but it doesn't seem to have been so in more northern climates and cultures even as late as the sixteenth century.
So, while I am a Latin Catholic and accept the Latin Church's discipline, I don't buy the argument that this was a uniform practice for the entire Western Church from the time fo the Apostles. History gives the lie to that.
In Christ,
BOB
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Dr. Eric - while clerical celibacy is the norm there are certainly exceptions in the Latin Church, as she has ordained married former Lutheran and Episcopalian ministers as priests in the Latin Rite.
In fact, a former poster here on the Forum, Fr. Alvin Kimmel, is one of the most recent to have been ordained to the priesthood (December 3rd, many years!) and there are several more close to ordination. Father Deacon, CIX! I believe the whole topic was started in the Latin apologetics circle with the upcoming ordination of former Anglican minister Mr. Dwight Longenecker, so I am aware that the Church has been doing this for a while. (I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck by using the last phrase, sometimes the internet is not a good forum for discussion as voice inflection cannot be taken into context.) I also remember that when I was being "recruited" by the Archdiocese of St. Louis, there was a mention of a former Lutheran pastor who was now a priest for the Archdiocese of St. Louis and how his family was getting used to having a priest for a husband and father. I don't like being called a heretic because I don't happen to agree with the current discipline of celibacy for Latin clergy who are "home grown."
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I think that mandatory celibacy for the clergy does a disservice to the charism of celibacy itself. In the early Church, celibacy was its own calling, independently of orders, though one could be called to both. Most priests typically were married. Most of the early Christian ascetics were not priests.
But now, it seems that celibacy is just a cross to bear for those in the Latin Church (or for byzantine Catholics in the United States) who want to serve as priests. They may not genuinely have the charism of celibacy and so they must endure something they don't want in order to serve at the altar.
Also, my personal opinion is that maintaining a celibate clergy is necessary if you want to keep the status quo of clericalism. Once you have a widespread married clergy, then you have a closer tie between laity and clergy (through the priests' wives, children, etc.). To me, and I mean this in all charity, it seems to be really an issue of power and control. This is just my observation, which is of course far from being infallible. So, I think that mandatory celibate clergy is a huge mistake on the part of the Latin Church, and quite frankly, it is unbiblical. Peace in Christ,
Joe
Last edited by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy; 12/05/06 06:56 PM.
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Doc,
Links please?
When you say that you are being called a "harry-tick", can you be more specific? How are they accusing you? What is their argument?
God bless,
Gordo
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Gordo, It was implied, not stated explicitly. Something to the effect that a Catholic has to submit to Rome in all things, even discipline. Avignon anyone? Check out Jimmy Akin's blog and Mark Shea's blog www.jimmyakin.org [ jimmyakin.org] www.markshea.blogspot.com [ markshea.blogspot.com]
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