www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Real renewal for the BCC

What does everyone think about Vladyka Basil's vision for the BCC?

http://www.archeparchy.org/page/bcw-online/BCW_PDF06/BCW_26nov06_pg_05_web.pdf

It's very encouraging to see our Metropolitan leading the charge on real renewal for our Church.

Mnohaja l'ita Vladyka Basil!

Privet Vostoichnik!
John, I read the article on Vladika Vasily, twice, but I honestly cannot say what he is proposing. Can you expound on what you gathered from this article?

Alexandr

What I got from it:

1) He's going to close or merge some parishes
2) He doesn't care about how things should be or for visions of the future, preferring to deal with how they are and what he's doing right now.
3) He intends to improve communication among all levels
4) He wants churches to not be ethnic
5) He wants churches to be highly involved in their local communities and politics (re: pro-life?)/civics (Christmas parades?)
6) He wants churches to foster community and to be welcoming to visitors
7) He's proud of the work of the new/revised liturgy because it is finally done after so many gave of themselves for it for so long
8) He expects everyone to get on board with the new/revised liturgy
9) He really doesn't want to remain ethnic and wants people to get over it and share the Gospel of Christ and their temples with non-Rusyns.
10) He wants to use technology wherever he can.

Is that what anyone else saw?

A few thoughts ...

A.) As hard as it is going to be, I don't see how we can skirt closing or merging some parishes. We once had two parishes near Chicago and one mission. Now, we have one very strong parish that is thriving.

B.) The church should always have a Rusyn soul ... it's in our DNA. I don't see Vladyka advocating that we abandon that.

C.) The fact that the BCC saw the need to "codify liturgical and musical texts" is good. It is an opportunity to restore and partake of more of our authentic Eastern Christian traditions. I'm still praying that somehow this will happen.

"He expects everyone to get on board with the new/revised liturgy"

Apparently he doesn't read this board very often!

Actually, I think he does, which might explain many things.

Fr. Deacon Lance

What does he mean by this since the proposed reformation of the Divine Liturgy is inauthentic? It will make us different from other Byzantine / Greek Catholics.

How can the Archbishop say that it has been worked on by the whole metropolia? The clergy were not consulted. The cantors were not consulted. The laity were not consulted. To this day the clergy of Passaic still do not have a copy of either the proposed changed Divine Liturgy or the proposed rewritten music. The whole process has been nothing more than a two-man show. Doesn't he realize that 90% of the church is united AGAINST this revison?

No. Not as long as the bicycle is on the edge of a cliff and facing the edge.

I very much doubt that the Archbishop reads this forum. If he did he would know that the proposed liturgical rewrite is based upon poor theology.

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I would think this means that all of our churches must finally look like Byzantine Churches, not Latin churches. There are still those out there with no Icon Screens, etc.

As for ethnicity, I don't see where he really wants to rid us of our identity. I do see where he wants us to be open to accepting new faces. "Our People" has to take on new meaning. We've been in this country for over a century. Massive Eastern European immigration isn't going to repeat itself, and if it does you can bet they won't be Greek Katliks.

We should look into why it can sometimes take YEARS in a particular eparchy before a person/family is permitted to 'change rites'. Is this realistic? It doesn't take years in say an Orthodox church if a Protestant wants to convert. Why is the waiting period sometimes 5 years or more for Catholic-to-Catholic? This attitude impedes our growth. If we make even a Catholic wait years, how do we readily open ourselves up to those who are non-churched or those of other faiths?

We need to walk the Gospel walk. 'Go forth and teach all nations' is quite different from 'Sit and wait, then be very selective'.

Sam

With all due respect, what is he talking about when the article says:
"At the same time, he stressed that the church should be an 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church."

And yet Parma, where he was Bishop, and Pittsburgh where he is Bishop, 90%+ of our parishes have no Vespers.

90%+ have no Matins.

Some churches are using pre-cut particles and completely skipping Proskomedia.

Need I go on? Do I need to rant and rave about kneeling on Sundays? Do I need to bring up confessionals and stations of the Cross? etc.

I don't understand this.

If there's one person on the planet who could lead us to restoration and 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church' it is him. I know, I know, I can hear those who will ask exactly what I've done to bring about restoration and since I haven't gone to every church in Parma and Pittsburgh that I haven't done enough. Yeah, yeah. You can't ignore what I wrote. You know as well as I do that he is the one who could bring authentic worship. He's had authority over two eparchies to bring authentic worship.

When I hear him say this and see what goes on, I have to conclude that his idea of 'authentic place of worship' is completely different than what Tradition calls for.

I'm supposed to be happy with the progress over the last ten years? Maybe when I'm 311 years old restoration will be complete? Come on, you who publicly disagree with me know in your hearts I'm right. Every church should have Vespers, every church should have Matins. No pre-cut particles. etc.

I agree with what Archbishop Basil said, that we should have an 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church." But actions speak louder than words.

Monomakh

My Orthodoxy is flaring up again. Monomakh brings up good points that always seem to go unanswered. I must admit that part of the reason I converted was because of a longing for the correct expression of the Byzantine rite.

Might I suggest to all non Orthodox posters here, to spend a weekend visiting an Orthodox parish in your area. Compare the two, and see what you think.

And before I get accused of proselytizing, I'm merely trying to point out to others what they are missing liturgically.

Unfortunately, without Proskomedia, the Liturgy is not valid. The Liturgy is comprised of three parts:

I) the Proskomedia,

II) the Liturgy of the Catechumens, and

III) the Liturgy of the Faithful

To omit one is to invalidate the entirety.


Proskomedia is a Greek word meaning offering. The first part of the Liturgy derives its name from the early Christian custom of the people offering bread and wine and all else that was needed for the Liturgy. Therefore, each small loaf of the bread which is used in it is termed a "prosphora," another word meaning offering. This bread or prosphora must be leavened, pure, and made of wheat flour. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, for the celebration of the Mystery of Holy Communion, used leavened, not unleavened bread, as is clear from the Greek word used in the New Testament. The prosphora must be round and formed in two parts, one above the other, as an image of the two natures of Jesus Christ, divine and human. On the flat surface of the upper part a seal of the Cross is impressed, and in the four sections thus formed are the initial Greek letters of the name of Jesus Christ, "IC XC," and the Greek word "NIKA," which mean together "Jesus Christ conquers."

The wine used in the Mystery must be red grape wine, as this color reminds us of the color of blood. The wine is mixed with water to remind us of the pierced side of the Savior from which flowed blood and water on the Cross. Five prosphoras are used in the Proskomedia to recall the five loaves with which Christ miraculously fed the five thousand, an event which gave Him the means to teach the people about spiritual nourishment, about the incorrupt, spiritual food which is bestowed in the Mystery of Holy Communion (John 6:22-58). One prosphora, known as the Lamb, is used for Holy Communion, in accordance with the words of the Apostle: "For we, being many, are one bread and one body, for we are all partakers of that one Bread" (I Cor. 10: 17).

The Proskomedia is performed by the priest in a quiet voice at the Table of Preparation when the sanctuary is closed. During its celebration, the Third and Sixth Hours are read.

The priest takes the first prosphora and with a small spear makes the sign of the Cross over it three times, saying the words, "In remembrance of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ." The priest then cuts a cube out of the center of this prosphora with the spear (a small, wedge-shaped knife) and pronounces the words of the Prophet Isaiah: "He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people was He stricken" (Is. 53:7-8).

This cube-shaped portion of the prosphora, called the Lamb (John 1:29), is placed on the diskos, a metal plate. Then the priest cuts a cross in the bottom of the Lamb while saying the words, "Sacrificed is the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, for the life of the world and its salvation." He then pierces the right side of the Lamb with the spear, saying the words of the Evangelist, "One of the soldiers with a spear pierced His side, and forthwith there came out blood and water. And he that saw it bore record, and his record is true" (John 19:34). In accordance with these words wine is poured into the chalice mixed with water.

From the second prosphora, the priest cuts out one portion in honor of the Virgin Mary and places it on the right side of the Lamb on the diskos. From the third prosphora, which is called "that of the nine ranks," are taken nine portions in honor of the saints, John the Forerunner and Baptist, the prophets, the Apostles, the hierarchs, the martyrs, the monastic saints, the unmercenary physicians, the grandparents of Jesus, Joachim and Anna, the saint who is celebrated that day, the saint to whom the church is dedicated, and finally the saint who composed the liturgy being celebrated. These portions are placed on the left side the Lamb. From the fourth prosphora, portions are removed for the hierarchs, the priesthood, and all the living. From the fifth prosphora, portions are taken for those Orthodox Christians who have reposed.

Finally, portions are removed from those prosphoras donated by the faithful, as the names of the health and salvation of living and for the repose of the dead. All these portions are placed on the diskos below the Lamb.

At the end of the Proskomedia the priest covers the bread with a metal asterisk (star) and then covers the diskos and chalice with special veils, censes the diskos and the chalice and prays that the Lord bless the offered Gifts and remember those who have offered them and those for whom they are offered.

The sacred instruments used and actions performed in the Proskomedia have symbolic meanings. The diskos signifies the caves in Bethlehem and Golgotha; the star, the star of Bethlehem and the Cross; the veils, the swaddling clothes and the winding sheet at the tomb of the Savior; the chalice, the cup in which Jesus Christ sanctified the wine; the prepared Lamb, the judgment, passion, and death of Jesus Christ; and its piercing by the spear, the piercing of Christ's body by one of the soldiers. The arrangement of all the portions in a certain order on the diskos signifies the entire Kingdom of God, whose members consist of the Virgin Mary, the angels, all the holy men who have been pleasing to God, all the faithful Orthodox Christians, living and dead, and, in the center its head � the Lord Himself, our Savior. The censing signifies the overshadowing by the Holy Spirit, whose grace is shared in the Mystery of Holy Communion.

Commemoration Lists

So powerful is the Church's intercession that even the righteous have been known to appear in dreams to those still living to ask the Church's prayers. In view of the great spiritual benefit bestowed upon those commemorated during Divine Liturgy, we should be conscientious in giving the names of those dear to us and all those in special need of prayer to be read at she Proskomedia. Most churches provide special printed slips of paper (usually located near the candle counter) for this purpose. For longer lists of names commemorated regularly, it is recommended to use a booklet.

How should one write out commemoration slips or booklets to be read at the Proskomedia?

Separate lists should be made for the living and departed; these should be clearly marked at the top, either "For the health and salvation of the servants of God" or "For the repose of the souls of the servants of God".

Proper Christian names received at baptism should be used, no nicknames or shortened forms: i.e., Theodore, not Ted; Margaret, not Peggy.

Whether a booklet or a slip of paper is used, care should be taken that it is clean and neat, reflecting a reverent attitude towards the holiness of the liturgical commemoration. Papers should not be crumpled or full of messy erasures. Booklets with loose pages or broken staples should be replaced. The writing should be legible; it should not be so small, or the names written so close, as to be difficult to read; those with poor handwriting should print or ask someone's assistance. The priest should be allowed to concentrate on prayer, not on retrieving loose pages or deciphering illegible script.

At the Divine Liturgy only members of the Orthodox Church are commemorated, since the particles placed on the diskos represent the Holy Church, the body of Orthodox believers. Separate lists should be kept of non-Orthodox to be commemorated with appropriate prayers.

Lists and booklets should be regularly updated, i.e., when someone dies or is ordained. It is best to designate "newly-departed" in pencil which can more easily be erased after the 40th day.

Clergy should be given their proper title: not simply "Father" but Priest, Deacon, Hieromonk, Monk, Reader, etc. Ecclesiastical titles may be abbreviated: Metropolitan Met.; Archbishop Archbp.; Bishop Bp.; Archimandrite Archim.

Commemoration slips should be handed in at the candle counter as early as possible, preferably at the preceding vigil service. Once the Liturgy of the Catechumens has begun it is more difficult for the priest, particularly it he serves without a deacon, to read the commemorations, although strictly speaking he may do so up to the time of the Great Entrance.

Alexandr

Alexandr,

From the Catholic viewpoint the skipping of the Proskomedia would not invalidate the Liturgy, not that I would condone such a practice.

But that brings us to Monomahks accusation that it is skipped which I am not aware that it is "skipped". Some priests may do it much earlier than when it should be done so that it appears as if it was skipped to some, but I am not aware or heard tales of any skipping it outright.

When pre-cut particles are used there is still a Lamb upon which all the prayers are performed and the Proskomedia is otherwise performed in full except for physically removing the Lamb from the Prosphora.

It also allowed by Rome to use a single Prosphora rather than 5.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Deacon Lance,

The prescribed rubrics for the serving of the Divine Liturgy are laid down by St John Chrysostom himself. ANY deviation from what has been prescribed is at best liturgical innovation, and at worst, blasphemy. We are not talking about making soup here. This is the Holy Divine Liturgy, the Logos made incarnate, the Bloodless Sacrifice. The concept of precut particles is almost unbelievable to an Orthodox person who is reading this list. And to actually sell them, as described by Fr Serge at:
https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbt...s&topic=0&Search=true#Post215047
is unbelievable. Such innovations only serve to drive wedges between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Deacon Lance, return to what is prescribed, and then you will truly celebrating the fullness of the faith.

Alexandr

[quote=Etnick][quote=Monomakh]With all due respect, what is he talking about when the article says:
"At the same time, he stressed that the church should be an 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church."

And yet Parma, where he was Bishop, and Pittsburgh where he is Bishop, 90%+ of our parishes have no Vespers.

90%+ have no Matins.

b]
cough cough
90% ?!?

I'm speechless. Just had lunch. Now I have indigestion.
Uhhh -thanks for that news, Monomakh.

"Might I suggest to all non Orthodox posters here, to spend a weekend visiting an Orthodox parish in your area. Compare the two, and see what you think."

Etnick-
Good advice. It appears 90% of our people don't know what they're missing. Very sad, indeed
Sam

Alexandr,

The Liturgy has changed since the time of St. John Chrysostom, who certainly did not write the rubrics for the present Proskomedia.

It is not for me to return or abandon but to obey the priest with whom I serve. I can certainly voice my opinion but that is all.

Fr. Deacon Lance