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I am not pleased with all of this dredging, but it seems a new report is out concerning the role of the Vatican and the Holocaust. This was on BBC's website tonight. Vatican Holocaust Claim Disputed - BBC [ news.bbc.co.uk] In IC XC, Father Anthony+
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Pope Pius XII was a hero and a truly holy Pope. The honor and gratitude shown to him after the war is testimony enough. I believe he will be canonized. The Church, under the Pope�s guidance, had already saved the lives of more Jews than all other churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations combined, and was presently hiding thousands of Jews in monasteries, convents and Vatican City itself [by 1943].
--John Toland (Hitler biographer)
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I find all this about Pope Pius XII annoying, and no doubt deliberate. I can't help but feel that behind it all is a desire for monetary compensation by the Vatican...so much for gratitude. I believe the Pope asked all the religious institutions in Rome to hide the Jews.
That there were people in the Catholic Church in Rome during the Second World War, risking their own lives, in order to save the lives of many Jews, seems to be of no concern to them. I can't help but wonder if those same Jews that are so outspoken, would themselves risk their lives for anyone?
Besides, were the Jews the only one's suffering during that war? I don't know too much, but I did hear that 20,000 were killed in the bombing of Belgrade, and I believe Warsaw was demonlished, as was Leningrad, Dresden and every other major city in Germany. All in all, I believe Europe suffered about twenty million losses...and that does not include all those that died in Ukraine and Russia under Stalin.
There is one factor that never seems to be mentioned. Europe was divided between two ideologies. One was nationalism, and the other communism. To oppose one, would automatically strengthen the other. In other words, had the Pope opposed Fascism, Nazism or any other form of extreme nationalism, he would, by default, be supporting Communism. That the Communist party was made up predominantly by Jews, is something that cannot be denied. In that sense and in it's own defense, the Germans, (and all other Europeans guilty of genocide), could very easily say that all the attrocities committed under the Communist regime in the Soviet Union, would therefore be directly attributed to the Jews.
Okay, so tell me I'm wrong! (wink)
Zenovia
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I am neutral about Pius XII- he certainly was not the caricature shown in the play "The Deputy" but on the other hand, he was not as concerned about the rise of Fascism as he was about Stalinism. Like many others of the age, he did not see the greater expansionist danger of Fascism until it was too late. I frankly admire John XXIII much more as he changed the Catholic Church's entire view towards Jews and especially Orthodox Christians. I could not see Pius XII doing that.
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I frankly admire John XXIII much more as he changed the Catholic Church's entire view towards Jews and especially Orthodox Christians. In what way? I'm not an expert on John XXIII, but what did he do formally as Pope that "changed" the Church's entire view towards Jews? "Nostra Aetate" was issued in 1965 by Pope Paul VI, and although it was significant in that it was a formal act of an Ecumenical Council, I think Pope Pius XI condemned anti-Semitism in even stronger terms a few decades before: Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites. After the war, Pope Pius XII told a group of Roman Jews, "I am only the Vicar of Christ, but you are his very kith and kin." I think that sums up his great love and esteem for the Jewish people. This was a 1941 Christmas editorial in the New York Times: The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. The Pope reiterates what he has said before. In general, he repeats, although with greater definiteness, the five-point plan for peace which he first enunciated in his Christmas message after the war broke out in 1939. His program agrees in fundamentals with the Roosevelt-Churchill eight-point declaration. It calls for respect for treaties and the end of the possibility of aggression, equal treatment for minorities, freedom from religious persecution. It goes farther than the Atlantic Charter in advocating an end of all national monopolies of economic wealth, and so far as the eight points, which demands complete disarmament for Germany pending some future limitation of arms for all nations.
The Pontiff emphasized principles of international morality with which most men of good-will agree. He uttered the ideas a spiritual leader would be expected to express in time of war. Yet his words sound strange and bold in the Europe of today, and we comprehend the complete submergence and enslavement of great nations, the very sources of our civilization, as we realize that he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all. The last tiny islands of neutrality are so hemmed in and overshadowed by war and fear that no one but the Pope is still able to speak aloud in the name of the Prince of Peace. This is indeed a measure of the "moral devastation" he describes as the accompaniment of physical ruin and inconceivable human suffering.
In calling for a "real new order" based on "liberty, justice and love," to be attained only by a "return to social and international principles capable of creating a barrier against the abuse of liberty and the abuse of power," the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism. Recognizing that there is no road open to agreement between belligerents "whose reciprocal war aims and programs seem to be irreconcilable," he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace. "The new order which must arise out of this war," he asserted, "must be based on principles." And that implies only one end to the war. I have no doubt that Pope John XXIII was a great friend of the Jews; he was a holy Pope as well. But I'm not aware of anything he did as Pope that was revolutionary in the Church's relationship with the Jews. I think if anyone bears that distinction, it is Pope John Paul II. Correct if I'm wrong.
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Quote, by Zenovia: There is one factor that never seems to be mentioned. Europe was divided between two ideologies. One was nationalism, and the other communism. To oppose one, would automatically strengthen the other. In other words, had the Pope opposed Fascism, Nazism or any other form of extreme nationalism, he would, by default, be supporting Communism. That the Communist party was made up predominantly by Jews, is something that cannot be denied. In that sense and in it's own defense, the Germans, (and all other Europeans guilty of genocide), could very easily say that all the attrocities committed under the Communist regime in the Soviet Union, would therefore be directly attributed to the Jews.
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Zenovia,
I'd be interested in your source on the predominance of Jews in Communism. I'm not a modern history expert; if anything, my area of interest is reformation era. But my understanding is that if anything, particularly in Germany and the UK, the jEws were more prominently nationalists; the whole modern/liberal Judaism movement could be seen in some ways as a desire to conform to the prevailing nationalist sentiments in Europe; a number of composers in particular symbolise this movement; not least Mendehlssohn. Theologians representing this movement would include Claude Montefiore. Conservative Judaism in the United States could also be seen to represent an assimilation into a prevailing national culture. OF course Marx's background is well known, but recent scholarship suggests that his philosophy in no ways was represented by the Soviet and CHinese communists particularly; and the antipathy of the Soviet regime to Jews is well documented. It should also be noted that the comment that there was a choice between one or the other represents exactly the kind of dialectic approach of Hegel etc. which inspired both philosophies.
Era, I agree completely with your analysis.
Ned
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Thanks Lawrence. It certainly wouldn't have suprised me to find a Jewish element in the Red side of the Russian revolution, due to the preponderance of Christians (and Muslims) in the White side. And yes, it's a better essay than some wiki entries.
Ned
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and certainly why many jews were involved in the Russian Social Democratic party (Bolsheviks) was that they were committed to overthrowing the Tsarist staTE which oppressed their community(See Pale of Settlement) These Jewish Marxists opposed the great majority of Jews who were religious in Russia. Also, this involvement of Jews was not monolithic. There were also political Jews who were involved in the Bund, the small Jewish socialist party which the Bolsheviks persecuted.
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I frankly admire John XXIII much more as he changed the Catholic Church's entire view towards Jews and especially Orthodox Christians. In what way? I'm not an expert on John XXIII, but what did he do formally as Pope that "changed" the Church's entire view towards Jews? "Nostra Aetate" was issued in 1965 by Pope Paul VI, and although it was significant in that it was a formal act of an Ecumenical Council, I think Pope Pius XI condemned anti-Semitism in even stronger terms a few decades before: You forget JOhn XXIII excising the words "perfidious Jews" from the Good Friday Liturgy. One might say that this was a small gesture but it was certainly powerful for the times and also one must consider Pope John's work as Papal nuncio in Turkey and Bulgaria where he was involved in saving many Jews. His actions did indeed lay the founding work for the Teaching of the Council in "Nostra Aetate"
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Dear Ned and Lawrence, I can't recall the article that stated that most Communists were Jews, although most Jews were not Communists. But no difference. I did notice in the article posted, that the Jews in top positions were way out of proportion to the population in the Soviet Union. I think though that that is the problem with the Jews. They are so active in whatever society they find themselves in, that even if they are taking conflicting positions within a society, the one's that are assumed to be 'detrimental' will stand out...and end up as a reflection on the whole Jewish people. As an example we have only to look at Hollywood and it's extreme liberalist agenda and how it appears to be a reflection on all Jews. Or the Jews that are now insisting that the Vatican did not do enough. Frankly, that is something that would be scandalous to those Jews who were heroically saved during the Second World War. They generously reciprocated by supporting those that saved them throughout their lives. Again though, we have to realize that in Europe boundaries were constantly changing. The Jews though knew no boundaries, and were therefore considered a threat to whatever or whoever was in power. Which of course meant that the Jews perceived whatever or whoever was in power was detrimental to their well being and in consequence within their perception, the well being of the world. Would it be shocking then to find them supporting a one world government in preference to a nationalist state? One thing that should be of interest is that the German Jews had adopted the attitude and concepts of that place and era. They looked down upon, and were embarrassed by their culturally 'inferior' brethren from Eastern Europe, and were quite shocked to find that Hitler did not differentiate between them. (Now don't ask me where I read that....it was about 40 years ago.)  Zenovia
Last edited by Zenovia; 12/10/06 04:20 PM.
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No worries Zenovia.
My main contact with the politicisation of Jews in Europe is from my work in a music library and the national movemnets associated with that, and some Hebrew I studied ages ago.
Ned
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