www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Vesper Liturgy on Sunday Evening (2006)?

CantorJFK,

I will speak from a pastoral view as I have no degree in Liturgical Studies. Many I am sure will disagree with me but I see it as valid developement. Evening Liturgies are here to stay for better or worse I think. If a parish has Saturday Evening Liturgies for Sundays how could a pastor justify not having a Vigil Liturgy for a Great Feast? In my own parish we absolutley have to have two Liturgies on Christmas and Pascha as both Litugies have every seat taken. On Christmas we have a Vigil Liturgy and one in the morning, on Pasha both are in the morning and Paschal Matins are done Sat evening. I would imagine the same is true for many other parishes as visiting family and returns of those who now go to Latin parishes generally swell the ranks on these two Feasts.

As to your question about the Orthodox, the Antiochians in the US have mandated Evening Vesperal Divine Liturgies for all the Great Feasts except, oddly enough, Christmas and allowed them for many Vigil rank saint's feasts. Now they have been truer to the Eastern ideal because this is the only Liturgy for the Feast, no second Liturgy in the morning. I believe some diocese in the OCA allow this as well.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

It is true for the Antiochians to have a Vesperal Divine Liturgy on the eve of a Great Feast (As a regular Divine Liturgy is prohibited for evening celebration alone, and must done according to the rubrics laid out for a Vesperal Divine Liturgy) as the only liturgical celebration for that occasion. The OCA does not have any such directives that has this type of Liturgy except for what is called for in the typicon. I just consulted with an OCA colleague who is rather liberal in his interpretation of the typicon, and he definitely stated that unless he wants big trouble from his hierarch, this is a matter that is not done.

I hope this clears this matter up, or else could you possibly supply the documentation that would prove me wrong.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Fr. Anthony,

Bishop Tikhon of the OCA Diocese of the West forbade these liturgies in his diocese which he acknowledged were tolerated by the Holy Synod.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/tikhon_evening_divine_liturgies.htm

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon Lance,

I believe the prohibition now extends to the entire OCA, as has been reported by my colleague due to some priests taking the interpretation of the typicon into their own hands and not seeking the required blessing from the respective hierarch. I believe this could be verified by checking the parish listings of the official OCA website in which types of services and times they are conducted are listed. Recently there has been an enforcement of proper liturgical discipline which I believe is cutting back on these abuses without proper hierarchical guidance and blessing.

Thanks you for your post.

Dear Cantor JKF,

While at present I feel that Orthodox priests that take liberties with the typicon and do not secure the appropriate blessing to conduct a Vesperal Liturgy are abusing circumstances, I am in no way totally against the idea. From an Orthodox pastoral point of view, this may be an option that would have to be taken into serious consideration considering the demands of today's society and its intolerance towards having those employed take off for weekday liturgical celebrations.

Like any other change that would effect the Orthodox Church, the (jurisdiction's) Synod of Bishops would have to study this and issue guidelines for when this could and could not be done, and then reiterate the appropriate rubrics for such a celebration. You must remember that most clergy have not been trained liturgically in how to conduct a Vesperal Divine Liturgy except when specifically called for in the typicon at present. Such an adaptation would also require a formal catechisis in which both the clergy and laity would be formed and developed under this change before such a matter was implemented. Also it should be given as a local option instead of an across the board mandate as to take into consideration local pastoral sensitivities and concerns.

Again, this would be only my own opinion, but I am sure that I would find some of like mind among my priestly brethren regarding this matter. Until that time, it is a good suggestion, but without the proper episcopal study and guidelines, that is where it will have to stand at the moment.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Cantor JFK,

The prescription of the Typicon is probably there to enforce the one altar, one liturgy, once a day rule. The Typicon is a blending of the Vespers to Vespers day and Midnight to Midnight day. So for example Christmas, if on a Monday has no Vesperal Liturgy because the typicon forsees the Sunday Liturgy in the morning so no Evening Liturgy because that would be two Liturgies in one Midnight to Midnight day. Seeing as we no longer observe the prescription of not more than one Liturgy on one day, whether it is out of necessity or convenience, it would make little pastoral sense to enforce it on Christmas. I would vote that this is simply Liturgical development. Of course one would have to also agree that more than one Liturgy a day is a valid development as well. I look at it from the practical aspect. If we don't offer the Evening Liturgies people will go to the Latin Church for them even if given catechesis.

Fr. Deacon Lance

In fact, I believe this is the reason that Father David actually gives in his Typicon entry. Perhaps you might have asked him privately first, since he has invited questions on anything in the typicon volumes he prepares?

I saw Antiochean parishes celebrating Vesper-Liturgies on non-traditional days before I ever saw the same in the Byzantine Catholic Church; and here's a Greek Orthodox parish doing the same this year on the eve of the Nativity of our Lord:

http://www.annunciationri.org/newsletter.cfm

Sun AM Dec 24 - Sunday before Christmas / Martyr Eugenia � MORNING SERVICES AS USUAL

Sun PM Dec 24 - EVE OF THE NATIVITY � Vesper/Liturgy � 8-9:30PM (Followed by caroling)

Mon Dec 25 - Nativity of Christ (CHRISTMAS) � Orthros @ 8:15am / Liturgy @ 9:30am


But I think Father Deacon Lance has indicated one of the practical REASONS: in some places, many people expect a Divine Liturgy as part of the Christmas Eve services, and may not feel they have properly celebrated the feast otherwise.

By the way, I'm confused: in your first note, Cantor JKF, you said the Typicon prescribes Vespers without a Liturgy, and that the Liturgy of St. Basil is the problem; then just above you say that the Vespers is a problem. Could you explain further what you are proposing as a pastoral adaptation?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Dear Fr. Deacon Lance,

You say that people will go to the Latin churches, even if given catechesis. Maybe so. But can we try to give catechesis first? Perhaps we should explain why there is the one altar--one liturgy rule, so that people understand it. And if they don't understand it, explain it again. Repeat as required.

Then again, to judge by our numbers, people have been going to the Latin churches for _every_ service, not just for Saturday evenings. Perhaps accomodation to the culture in these things is not the answer--it certainly hasn't worked so far.

One must bear in mind that the 70's, 80's and early 90's was a period of gross irregularity in the Orthodox Church on the North American continent. Liturgical abuses and irregularities were rampant. These are NOT examples to be emulated. Since that time, great effort has been made by most jurisdictions to restore proper lituirgical practice, as evidenced by recent actions taken by the respective jurisdictions. The Orthodox Churches are returning to a more centrist stance as opposed to the liberal embellishments that were so unsuccesful and led to the problems associated with that time period. That being said, one also has to bear in mind that liturgical development in the East is an organic process. We in the West are used to instant gratification, and view our world as such. The Church is timeless, and when change does occur, it occurs organically and of it's own accord, not by decree or referendum. God's time is not our time. These things may take hundreds of years. It is my belief that all, whether Orthodox or EC, should be on the same page regarding liturgics, each according to the ethnocentric qualities of their respective typiki. Would it not be wonderful for all Orthodox and catholics to be on the same calendar, with the same cycle of services and rubrics, with only regional and ethnic variations to add flavor to the stew? The current period in Orthodox history is one of healing and regrouping. Jurisdictions that have not spoken to each other in decades are now warmly embracing each other and seeking common ground in the name of the Faith. We have laid aside our differences, and now invite the EC's to examine our liturgical structure and to emulate them in their entirety, and therefore become Orthodox in communion with Rome.
I know concerns have been raised that unless liturgical irregularities are mantained, then people will go to the Latin Churches. My experience is that is not the case. It takes a little education. People are not dumb, and once it has been explained to them that previous practice has been incorrect and is a direct result of the imposed latinization of the EC, they will respond accordingly. A few may drift off, but if they do, they were never there in the first place. Again, if you offer them meat instead of marshmallow, they will come.

Alexandr

I think I heard that our parish will be having a vesperal liturgy on the 23rd for Sunday, no AM divine liturgy on Sunday, and then a PM Vespers + St. Basil. While not ideal, it still maintains the "one liturgy, one altar" rule.