www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Attention: Text of the Revised Liturgy is here, click this post!!

Such as I. We will welcome you home with open arms and open hearts!

(P.S. We always need help pinching pyrohy!!!)

can i ask something - is there any new Liturgicon that has revised? I am doing a survery nowadays and asking... I am Romanian catholic byzantine and in my country the Byzantine Vespers (vecernia) and the Byzantine Matins (utrenia) although they are mentioned in the Liturgicon they aren't done by the priest. i am interested whether this happens in other Catholic Byzantine Churches.

My local Ruthenian Greek Catholic Priests also refuse to have Vespers and Matins.

"My local Ruthenian Greek Catholic Priests also refuse to have Vespers and Matins."

Good shot!

Sam

InCogNeat3, I sent you a PM, but are you referring to priests within the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh itself when you mention their not having Vespers or Matins? If so, I thought they could use MCI texts, because they are approved for use within the archeparchy. Does anyone else here know more on this? (NOT referring to proposed liturgy.)

Jim,

You are acting like this is some sort of shocking revelation. You surely are not that naive.

The Insider

Actually, I AM hoping that they are that naive! I find the alternative worrisome indeed!

Alexandr

Not shocked at all. Naivete aside, are there other answers, apart from one like, "they don't want to, so they aren't gonna"? I hope so.

No in most cases that last part of your statement pretty well sums up the motivation of most of the brethren, most are will not attend the service (Vespers or Matins), so we are not going to do them.

The Insider

I am refering to parishes within the Pittsburgh Metroplia, but not neccesarily the ArchEparchy.

Both Priests play the "pretend he is nuts for asking for Church Services in a Church" game. One Priest has Saturday evening Liturgy (and Sunday morning Liturgy at the same Church. Same Altar, same Priest, etc.) Fairly recently a Roman Catholic Diaconate Class visited for Saturday Evening Liturgy expecting an hour and a half "Mass". They were shocked to instead experience a 45 minute Divine Liturgy. This Priest, so far as I can tell has absolutely no desire to have Vespers, Matins, Molebens, etc. This Priest does have some good qualities and I appreciate his many sacrifices to be a celibate Priest, etc.

The other Priest does have some health issues, however he could easily sit for much of Vespers and Matins if he wasn't up to standing the entire time. This Priest also frequently uses the "only you and the cantor would show up" and "in Orthodox Churches, often only the Priest, Deacon, and their families show up for Vespers" and "Oh, the Byzantine Liturgy and other services are Monastic anyway" excuses. This Priest tells me to have Vespers on my own, at home. (I attend vespers Saturday evenings at the local Orthodox Churches.) I also very much appreciate this Priest for his many sacrifices and gifts.

In summary both Priests just don't feel like having Vespers, Matins, Akathists, Molebens, etc. Therefore they won't. By refusing to catechize and promote They fulfill their own prophecies that noone would show up if we did have the Church Services.

Ultimately, the Bishop does not want to mandate, or even promote Divine Services other than shortened versions of the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil and the abridged Presanctified Liturgy. Therefore it is also very much the Bishop that has the "they don't want to, so they aren't gonna" approach. (Although it is also the Priests fault and especially my fault for lack of worthy prayer.

We supposedly have been having "the new Divine Liturgy" on Sundays for over a year now, but that is not quite true. I noticed the link to the "new liturgy" has at least one verse of a third antiphon, which is one more than we have. The "new liturgy" apparently has dropped the filioque, but we still include it. At the "Preparation for Communion" litany, we have two "Lord, have mercy"s and no "Grant it, O Lord"s. We do get to experience the gender neutral language, however.

We tried having a reader's service of Vespers on Saturday evenings, and the vigil of Vespers/Matins/1st hour on eves of feasts, but received no support from our priest encouraging people to attend. Attendance averaged about three people. Finally we just gave up and started attending a local Orthodox church for these services.

I am continually haunted by a conversation I had with the Orthodox priest one afternoon. He jokingly quipped, "When you grow tired of only being as Eastern as they'll let you be, remember that we will still be here." I dismissed it at the time, but it is sounding more and more prophetic.

I pray all the time that Jesus may still the turbulence of my emotions, tossed about by the storm of liturgical changes just as he calmed the storm-tossed waters. But I'm afraid that I am getting increasingly seasick.

Cause me to know, O Lord, the way wherein I should walk; for unto Thee have I lifted up my soul.

Oh, I like that! I'll have to keep that one handy.

Alexandr

I wish EVERY BYZANTINE CATHOLIC could attend vespers at St. Theodosius cathedral in Cleveland at least once in their lifetime.

They'll never forget it, and really have something to think about.

We're experiencing major thread drift, but nevertheless....

Getting people to attend Vespers and Orthros is a universal problem. One EC parish I know has both, but they're attended by no more than 10% of the people. I've attended Orthos at an Orthodox parish and a cathedral, and attendance (as well as the number of clergy!) was even less than at the EC parish.

The clergy - and the faithful as well - need to explain the importance of these prayers to their brethren. Failing that, if the people won't come, the people won't come.

However, I don't think this should have anything to do with whether or not we have Orthros in our parishes (or for that matter whether or not we try our best to do readers Vespers/Orthros in our homes). In the end, they are not "services" for the people to attend, but the Church's prayer to God, which goes on regardless of the number of attendees.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning!

i am very sorry but the structure of the Vespers and Orthos cannot aply to a a home reading!!! their main feature is that they are celebrated with the entire community and not in a private space, at home or duuno where. you cannot buy all the books needed when you sing the Vespers in the church, and because of that, the private reading has nothing to do with real and complete Vespers in a church.