www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Liturgy is Promulgated!

Dear Nicholas,

The answer is yes to all your questions. The only thing is that it must be done within the limits that I have set earlier, not inciting disobedience towards Church authority and to have all posts done in a charitable fashion.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Hi folks,

I am a little confused. Is the new translation of the Nicene Creed "For us and for our salvation" or "For us humans and for our salvation" or something like that? If it is the former translation (leaving out anthropos altogether), then what has happened is that the Ruthenian Church has adopted the Creed of the Episcopal Church and other mainline protestants.

I noticed that in many of the priest's invocations of the Trinity it is phrased as "God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." This is also the way it is done in the current Book of Common Prayer I believe. I once remember a discussion with a Catholic priest who objected to this rendering of the Trinity since it implies modalism. I don't know if I agree, but I do see his point. It would seem that the distinctiveness of the persons is being downplayed for the sake of simplicity of language? Does anyone have a link to the text of the Byzantine Liturgy as it has been prayed in the Ruthenian Church up until this new promulgation? God bless.

Joe

Dear Joe,

The new creed, if the most recent public version is the actual version, is "for us and for our salvation."

Anthropos is dropped.

Yikes! I find that quite quite troubling.

I too have left the BCC for other ecclesial shores (still in communion with the See of Rome), but am grateful for my seven years in the BCC and for the leadership of Bishop John of Parma and our parish pastors. I cannot help but think that this is a grave blunder on the part of the BCC, but I believe that the mindset of many involved see any fuss given here as "much ado about nothing". People don't like change - they naturally resist it, right? So we just need to manage through it effectively...

Well, sometimes it is not just a matter of good change management - sometimes it is the substance of the change that matters.

To my mind, this whole effort creates another obstacle in our necessary path towards union with Orthodoxy, and largely diminishes the Church's proclamation of our authentic Byzantine heritage. It also needlessly creates ill feeling on the part of those who were at one time supporters of the Metropolia - some of whom have already left for other jurisdictions, Orthodox or Catholic. As has been said here time and again, all of that $$$ could have gone to SOOOOO many other things to support and strengthen the mission of the BCC...which needs to be strengthened and supported if it is to fulfill its vocation, as well as to survive at all!

So in the end, will it all be worth it? The expense, the loss of membership, the needless offense given to the sensibilities of many of the faithful, the break with Orthodox Tradition?

I would hazard a guess and say "no".

C�est la Guerre,

Gordo

Our folks know it, and the newcomers learn it. I myself had to learn it, and I learned how to read from the Prostopinije book, too.

Here's a nice example: On Theophany, we had a friend of the pastor's in to concelebrate. One of our youngest members, she's about 5, sang "kto kto nikolaya" flawlessly, for Father. She just picks it up, because nary a Liturgy goes by without at least "Svjate Boze" or the "Ize" in Slavonic, not to mention hymns.

I realize we're the "American" Church, but still, we have a heritage we need to protect.

A quick comment from a Latin forum member, the USCCB also submitted the same translation...this little tidbit is from Adoremus July/August 2006...

* Latin:�Qui propter nos h�mines��. The word �man� (homines) has been deleted from the ICEL translation submitted to the bishops. Bishops David Foley (Birmingham), Fabian Bruskewitz (Lincoln), Joseph Martino (Newark) wanted to retain �men�; however their amendments were rejected by the BCL before the meeting. The rationale for rejecting these amendments: �The Committee declines to accept the amendment, suggesting that the avoidance of men as a universal non-gendered inclusive, when possible, is a reasonable principle when translating into English as spoken in the United States .

james

Gordo is a prime example of the current and distressing "brain drain" from the Byzantine Catholic Church. Those who would be ready to build the future are driven away.

Perhaps the solution is to just start Melkite/UGCC mission parishes? If there isn't a good parish close to you then work to start one. There is a time for complaining about the present but it is also important to take action. I believe it's important to maintain an Eastern Catholic presence in America. Even if, God forbid, the BCC really starts dieing off there are other places to go to preserve the Eastern tradition within the US and within the Catholic Church as a whole. Also, if you are lucky enough to have a good parish, then do what you can to support it and help it grow. Some of this negativity should be translated to positive goals I think.

Matt,

It�s just a matter of time until the Melkite/UGCC go down this path. It seems to me that their is something fundamentality wrong with the CC today.

Sounds good but what is a parish like St. Ann's in Harrisburg supposed to do? With the loss of +Father Michael Shear and the new Liturgy shoved down their throats, the parishioners are sure to feel like a bomb was dropped on them. Time will tell.

This Ray , I have to admit is what is concerning me - the thought that someone will decide that what the BCC has done today - then the UGCC must do tomorrow

The UGCC is, at least in the U.S. anyway, backwards enough as it is, what with recited Liturgies and all.

Dear Ray,

I think you are making too much of a generalization. The Roman church is actually going the opposite direction, towards a liturgical renewal (in the real sense).

I really don't get this whole impetus to be constantly fiddling with the liturgy. Can someone explain it to me? Are people just bored or something? It seems like everything these days has to be reimagined. The conception of family has to change, male/female relationships must change, language must be altered, the church must be more "progressive". No one respects the past anymore. I sound like I'm 70, lol! I think I'm going to grow a long beard and dress in a toga