www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Liturgy is Promulgated!

Ray S. Isn't this change only affecting Ruthenians? Why not join the Unkrainians or Melkites instead of breaking communion with Rome? It seems like there are other options. That being said, I completely understand and sympathize with your frustration. How many people do you think these changes will drive out? Moreover, I'm afraid it will be the "devout and knowledgable" parishoners who will leave. What a sad day

I don't know if this will "drive" people out. But there are bigger issues here for me personally. These issues have been bugging me for some time. I really think I need to speak to some one about them.

The Ukraines, Melkites, Latins, etc... everyone has serious liturgical problems in my humble opinion. I think the Latin for what is going through my head right now is Lex Credi Lex Oradia (not sure the spelling) which means "worship as you believe".

I am starting to believe that the RCC does indeed worship as they believe! This scares me! One only needs to step into a RCC and see what the RCC believes.

My conscience is truly bothering me on this issue and I am very confused right now as a Christian.

Does this make any sense?

What canonical penalties will I incur if I continue to say "for us men. . ."?

I have to say - that that is the way I read it . If this is so , then yes - where is the outreach ? Many folk do NOT have English - or have only sufficient to 'get by ' in the Liturgy.

What will they take home from the Readings - will they actually understand them ? How many people would be able to go to DL, taking with them the readings in their own Mother tongue ?

Will anyone notice if you do ?

Ray,

Once again, I sympathize with your general concerns. I'm not sure what your other liturgical issues are so I can't comment on those. I find the Melkite liturgy to be very good indeed. I suppose that may be due to my particular parish though, or maybe I'm just missing something.

Matt

Even after the months and months of debate, I can't figure out what is really really the terrible thing about this Revision? There is a difference in Greek between "anthropos" and "andros" fyi -- anthropos is mankind, people, humans; andros is man, male.

I actually like the re-introduction of Theotokos, as well as the distinction between "and with your spirit" and "and to your spirit" (look that up in the Slavonic as well).

I was reading "Evening Worship in the Orthodox Church" by Nicholas Uspensky and ran across a part explaining how there was an error that allowed "It is proper and just (it is meet and right) to worship the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit..." while the ORIGINAL Greek texts have simply: "It is proper and just" (or "it is meet and right" -- but who even knows what "meet" means anymore?) -- and this is being restored, too, as has already been done in the Passaic Eparchy.

My only complaint is a possible loss of Slavonic, which would be tragic, and something we can actually learn from the Latins about, with regards to babies and bathwater.

The revisionists don't seem sensitive to this issue at all. They look down their noses on the traditionalists, they think we're backward and hurtful.

What do we do, if it is a matter of conscience? What do we do, if we think that the Archbishop has broken the promises he made at his enthronement?

What do we do, if feministic language is really offensive to us? What do we do, if we think the revisionists have gone too far?

The promulgation says that this is the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and Saint Basil. That is the first mistake, it is not. It can't claim that title.

Actually, it will become known as the Divine Liturgy of
Archbishop Schott. I hope he is proud of what he has done.

I think it is a matter of conscience.

If my pastor said it was o.k., then I would feel easier about it. But I know he hates what they've done.

Nick

Marc, with regard to Slavonic, are there BCC parishes where you are that use it regularly? The few times Slavonic has been attempted in my parish, the congregation stopped singing because they were unfamiliar (or maybe not even interested in it ). When I attended the Slavonic service in Uniontown during the Carpatho-Rusyn Festival there in October, virtually the same thing happened. The cantors (from all over western PA.) upstairs sang, but the folks downstairs mostly didn't.

English is what my parishioners are used to. The few cradle Byzantines we have don't know Slavonic very well anymore. Maybe the solution is to continue having occasional multi-parish gatherings where those who are familiar with Slavonic can help the rest. Make it a special observance, like the one at the church in Uniontown.

The news of the promulgation of the Revised Liturgy was like the news of a sick person dying, you knew it was coming but it still was like a kick in the stomach when you heard the not surprising news.

I've already posted time and time again questions that will never be answered. I've already posted time and time again my feelings on this.

All I can say is that it is a sad day for the Byzantine Catholic Church in America. If the revisionists think that they have won I feel sorry for them as well. No really, I feel sorry for them. Because the people who you are going to lose are the more devout and liturgically educated. That's not meant to sound snooty, but these are the people that are needed especially for a church who can't afford to loose any more people.

The first thing to do in order to get out of a hole is to stop digging. For some reason the BCA continues to dig themselves into a hole, and I'm not sure if loosing the people that they are going to loose from this is something that they will ever fully recover from.

I think that the revisionists and the powers that be see it as that they have accomplished what they've always wanted, and that is an independent unique church. Independent of it's ties to Eastern Europe and it's heritage. Independent of it's Ukrainian and other Greek Catholic Brethern. Independent of any ties or similarities that were even remaining with our Orthodox Brethern. You can only water down grape juice so much before it begins to taste like water instead of grape juice. The time has come where the taste of the grape juice is now water.

What a sad day when we as Eastern Christians are told that it is wrong to practice as our ancestors did. Our ancestors would be ashamed to see that what they handed to us has been corrupted and revised. I am ashamed of what our rite has become, but even sadder is that the loss of more people and the increase in animosity is something that our rite cannot sustain. Sadly, this is the beginning of the end. Prayers that this may not be so.

Monomakh

Other than scripture, I must have read this ten times last night.


DO NOT GO GENTLE INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

-- Dylan Thomas


-------------

Monomakh

Most people don't know this is coming yet. I know of some Churches in which they are totally ignorate of the changes. Come Feb 1st. They will all get a BIG awaking.

Yes Ray, especially the parishes that still celebrate a 1/2 hour low mass with no incense or screen, they will get a big surprise.

Dear Marc,

Where, in the new creed, is the word "anthropos" translated?

You say it means "mankind, people, humans." Fine. Where do those words appear in "For us and for our salvation?"

That's the big deal. A creed of an ecumenical council has just been changed.

Your statement is partly false and it goes to the heart of the issue. Anthropos, like men, means all of mankind, but it also means an adult male:




The fact is "anthropos" is not being translated in the Creed. Why?

What is at the heart of the issue is that what is sacred (ie the Creed and the Divine Liturgy) is being made profane (ie we are using the polically correct speak of the world) because as Fr. Petras has stated, terms like "men" and "mankind" are labeled as sexist. I say BY WHOM? THE WORLD -- those who promote women's ordination, contraception and abortion. (PC speal is the one fo the hottest issues in modern academia).

My wife, the mother of nine, does not find "men" in the Creed or "mankind" in the Liturgy offensive, but she is deeply offended that the Church is so concerned about the feminists. She is often insulted in the world (and I could go on and on about specific examples) because she is open to life--she is following God's plan not the world's. She would like to go to Church (to her mother and mine) and not be confronted there with the world's view of "gender" equality, but rather with God's truths which speak of true equality and real womanhood.

The other issue is this, What authority (according the East's view of looking at things), do a snall group of Bishops have, apart from an Ecumenical Council, to give us a different Creed?

I can hear the opbjection already, "but Rome approved it." Just as they have in the past approved alter girls for the Roman Rite in this country and just as they have approved mistranslations of the Novus Ordo (which will finally be corrected in the next two years.)

As for me and my family, we seek to follow Peter, not the Valerie Karras' of the world.