www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Father/Master Divine Liturgy

Why do we use "Father" in the Liturgy and not "Master'?

Where in the Liturgy are you referring to?

Alexandr

I would assume that would be in the first lines: "Father, bless" as opposed to "Master, bless." If so, that topic has a thread in the Revised Liturgy board, IIRC.

Well, I just looked at a liturgicon from an Orthodox jurisdiction and it happens to say, Deacon : "Master, give the blessing" Priest; Blessed is the Kingdom of the.....
Even in the Slavonic texts it says, Vladyko Blahoslovi (or Blagoslovi if you're prounouncing it Russian style).

It is a mistake. It is one of the mistakes in the Revised Liturgy. It is mistranslation, and interpretation, a revision, a interpolation, some view it as an improvement.

I do not.

Nick

Why couldn't they have given us a revised translation, that is accurate, complete, faithful, and prayerful? Such a shame they couldn't read the instruction from Rome on 'how to translate the Liturgy', and followed the instructions. Is that so difficult? Was that impossible?

By the way, Archbishop Joseph Raya of blessed memory translated this as "Give the blessing, Father."

Father Casimir Kucharek translated it as "Bless, Sir."

Personally, I prefer "Bless, Master".

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

The problem here is that the term "despota," while generally referring to the bishop can, indeed, refer to the priest who is the "master" of the Liturgy if the bishop is not present.

In the Melkite tradition we tend to make the distinction between the bishop and the priest by asking the bishop to "Give the blessing, Master!" while we ask the priest, "Give the blessing, Father!"

Fr. Deacon Edward

Should we pity the Orthodox (and other ECs, such as the Ukrainians) who have yet to realise that a priest isn't a bishop and insist on beginning services with "Master, bless / Blagoslovy, vladyko / Evlogison, desota", as has been done for centuries? When will they get with the times?

Part of the whole vexed issue is that we DON'T normally address the bishop as Master in English. If I meet an Orthodox bishop (generally a Slavic one in this neck of the woods), I'm likely to address him as "Vladyka" rather than switching to English and saying:

Well, Master, you see...
Well, Bishop, you see...
Well, Your Grace, you see... (best of the lot, but way too Latin)

I'm not sure what Greeks use, but even native-English-speaking Russian and Carpatho-Russian Orthodox I know use "Vladyka", simply because it WORKS. (One told me, "If I called him Master then I might have to do what he says! But I can call him Vladyka and wait till he leaves..." That, of course, is another matter; do we ACT as if Bishop Andrew, or Metropolitan Basil, can give authoritative commands which God expects us to honor? If not, then to say "Master" might be hypocritical...)

We've addressed the bishop liturgically as Master for 40+ years. Yet is has never entered the common parlance as an address. Why not?

It comes down to a lack of a common English address for our bishop (and perhaps by extension one of his priests, at least during the Liturgy), which does not sound like the first line of a business letter.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Christ is baptized! In the Jordan!

Which Orthodox are you referring to, Mr. Kobzar? Certainly not the Antiochian Orthodox, whose Liturgikon says "Bless, Father." And in the Greek Orthodox "Service of the Sunday Orthos, the people's response before the beginning of Matins is "Amin. En onomati Kyriou evlogeson, PATER." "Amen. In the anme of the Lord, bless, FATHER."

And in a lot of Ukrainian Orthodox churches, the congregation also sings "Otche, blahoslovij," rather than "Vladyko, blahoslovij."

So, it's not just the Byzantine Catholic Church that has adjusted this usage.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

When I address a bishop as 'Vladyko', 'Despota', 'Lord' I am fully aware that I mean 'Master' - with all of its connotations. In the context of North America I can understand people having trouble with the word 'Master', but that doesn't justify it in my eyes.

Some things in the Church make people uncomfortable? Well, who ever said Christianity was simple, easy?

Out of curiousity, then, what DO you call your bishop in English as a form of address when you speak to him? Say, when asking him for a blessing, or to pass the salt at table?

Prof Thompson,

I am referring to the opening of the public portion of the Divine Liturgy when a deacon is present (which should be the norm).
Greek: Ευλογησον Δεσποτα ("Synekdemos", Athens 1979)
Slavonic: Благослови, владыко (both Nikonian and Ruthenian)
English: Master, give the blessing (from the Sheptytsky Institute's "Anthology" - a work with which I am sure you are familiar).

Within services I agree that it should either be "Bless" or "Father, bless", unless, of course, there is a bishop present, or in a cathedral, regardless if the bishop is in attendance, when it should be "Master, bless".

Jeff,

To be honest, other than briefly meeting one or two Roman Catholic bishops, I've never spent any time around a bishop who did not also understand Greek and/or Slavonic and/or Ukrainian in addition to English. But in an English-only situation I would, without hesitation, say "Master, bless".

As for passing the salt, first I'd try to ask someone else to do it. If there was no other choice I would probably ask "My lord, would you please be so kind as to ...". And yes, I have been known, on occasion, to refer to a bishop as "Lord (titular see)", but over the years I have picked up some quirky habits.

Thanks for all the great replies to my post!