|
1 members (San Nicolas),
367
guests, and
98
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,516
Posts417,604
Members6,169
| |
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,070
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,070 |
A number of BCC faithful are explaining what has or hasn't happened as best they can here- mostly for the benefit of those in other jurisdictions as it is turning out, if you review the affiliations like I did. BCC members are not asking questions now. They don't have the book yet. Neither does anyone else who is suggesting letter writing, etc. Some users are getting a perception that a crisis is occurring when the numbers are not there to show it.
All of us who are Byzantine Catholics should peruse the new book carefully once it is available. There is just not all that much of it here for anyone to make a judgment from. Even the liturgy copies that keep resurfacing periodically are incomplete and not up to date, and no one is posting versions from the book itself. Best to review the book when it comes to your parish, and ask questions of your pastor.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 209
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 209 |
The Metropolitan, in his letter to pastors(Jan. 6, 2007)in introduction to the Decree of Prulgation, wrote: "You will be receiving the Liturgicons and the People'sBook by the end of January 2007. Meanwhile you will also receive a kit containing resources, including a black and white copy of the Liturgicon, to help in the catechesis of the new edition for clergy, cantors, and laity."
When we get a look at it, and make copies of our own, we will be better equipped to make our case to Rome and othe Hierarchs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
I believe that Jim's proposal is a reasonable one.
In the meantime, I would recommend acquiring a copy of Father Serge's published critique, reading through Father David's responses on his site, as well as reading through the conversations here, making a preliminary determination of your position. Then, once you acquire a copy, decide whether or not to send a steady stream of letters to Rome, the various Patriarchs, etc etc.
God bless,
Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 648
Orthodox domilsean Member
|
|
Orthodox domilsean Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 648 |
Jim, thanks for being level-headed. I've avoided this debate until now simply because I felt that emotions were riding high.
I am waiting to see, and I am prepared to help my pastor explain and implement the changes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173 Likes: 1 |
What conclusions can be drawn from this information? Some folks prefer to be anonymous for one reason or another, others have no really immediate stake in this issue except for how they think it may impact their own hierarchy in the future. If there are only 13 BCC members after 12 pages of messages, then there may not even BE a big issue within the BCC itself. I wish I knew who said: "In God we trust; all others bring data." Just don't shoot the messenger.  --------- If the few thriving parishes in the BCC are made up of vostochniks it will be an issue. If the parishes are mostly revisionists then the ship will continue to sail as it has been. Time will tell.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 618
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 618 |
A number of BCC faithful are explaining what has or hasn't happened as best they can here- mostly for the benefit of those in other jurisdictions as it is turning out, if you review the affiliations like I did. BCC members are not asking questions now. They don't have the book yet. Neither does anyone else who is suggesting letter writing, etc. Some users are getting a perception that a crisis is occurring when the numbers are not there to show it.
All of us who are Byzantine Catholics should peruse the new book carefully once it is available. There is just not all that much of it here for anyone to make a judgment from. Even the liturgy copies that keep resurfacing periodically are incomplete and not up to date, and no one is posting versions from the book itself. Best to review the book when it comes to your parish, and ask questions of your pastor. Christ Is Baptized! Well Jim.......Using your logic,I do not know what it is like to be shot in the head. Therefore I should offer a liberal Bishop a cigar while I watch him load a shotgun with the published intent of shooting me in the head. After being shot in the head, I will have more knowledge as to what it is like to be shot in the head. Then, I can make an informed judgement as to whether or not I should object to being shot in the head. In the mean time my funeral will consist of a modernist charade that those that dare call themselves Byzantine Catholics pass off as "Eastern Christianity."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264 |
Perhaps the solution is to just start Melkite/UGCC mission parishes? If there isn't a good parish close to you then work to start one. I actually asked about this a while ago in another thread. My question was why given the similarities between the two, hadn't the Melkites opened missions at the same rate as the Antiochian Orthodox. The main reason given was that there aren't enough priests (tied I think to the closing of the one Melkite seminary in the United States) and that Catholic hierarchs would not be comfortable with lay led missions (which does happen in Orthodoxy). It's even harder for me to understand because according to this: My dear friends in Christ, it is vital that each of us realizes his own personal responsibility for supporting our Church in America. We estimate that there are well over 200,000 Melkites living in the U.S. In our churches, we have about 30,000. I have had requests from Melkites around the country�from Houston, Raleigh, Toledo, Allentown, Tampa, and several areas of California�for Melkite parishes to serve their families. Sadly, there are none in these areas. We must seek out our brothers and sisters and establish new missions and parishes to serve them. It seems there is a great need for missions to serve just the existing base of Melkites, let alone converts. Also this says But I have seen many of my brother bishops have to make the wrenching decision to end the life of a parish. It can happen in our own diocese, too. I have seen many Melkite parishes and missions in the United States close their doors forever. Which led me to ask if the Melkites are actually contracting, but nobody was able to answer that question. Lastly, this article says A number of churches are trying to accommodate their membership by moving their parish facilities. But this is a financial burden for even the largest Melkite parishes, who (unlike Roman Catholics) have no diocesan fund from which to secure large loans. Finally, with an organized presence in so few areas (relative to Latin churches), a Melkite who moves to a city or state without a church is unable, by definition, to be active in a Melkite community. I think without such a fund their ability to expand or open missions would be further hampered. It seems like starting a mission would be very difficult, if not impossible, so I'm not sure what a Ruthenian would do who for instance lived near where I do. The nearest Melkite church is about 3 and 1/2 hours away, and the UGCC churches near me AFAIK are very, very Latinized. These are all interesting points. I also wonder how much missionary collaboration between jurisdictions may be hampered now that a common English translation of the Divine Liturgy is a virtual impossibility with the new promulgation? Gordo
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1 |
I'm puzzled by the aversion (if it really exists) to the notion of a lay-organized mission leading to a new parish. Many Greek-Catholic parishes in North America began in just that way; lay people would organize and then, when they could show a base, would seek a priest.
In any event, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for any bishop to forbid a group of lay people to gather for reader services, particularly in an area where there is no accessible existing parish.
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231 |
I'm puzzled by the aversion (if it really exists) to the notion of a lay-organized mission leading to a new parish. Many Greek-Catholic parishes in North America began in just that way; lay people would organize and then, when they could show a base, would seek a priest.
In any event, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for any bishop to forbid a group of lay people to gather for reader services, particularly in an area where there is no accessible existing parish.
Fr. Serge Fr. Serge--Bless. Unfortunately in today's climate, if a group of laity met and developed themselves independently and grew to a point where they could approach a hierarch to start a mission, they would be looked on as rebels and probably wouldn't stand much of a chance in getting anything "official" started. As to those early pioneers (Vichnaya jemu pamjat!) who organized themselves and then called for a priest (from Europe), they were more than likely so small and insignificant, AND probably not even looked on as Catholic by local non-Rusyn/Galician/Middle Eastern populations and clergy they lived near that they had no option but to do it themselves! John K
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 564
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 564 |
There is such a group in Peoria. They are having some success, but have not been assigned a priest yet. Currently Fr. Loya serves them twice a month, I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231 |
There is such a group in Peoria. They are having some success, but have not been assigned a priest yet. Currently Fr. Loya serves them twice a month, I believe. Yes, I'm aware of that group, but they have Fr. Tom as a "sponsor/advisor." It's not an independent group holding only readers services and establishing themselves, THEN going to the bishop for a priest.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1 |
Dear John,
In today's climate, if a group of laity met and developed themselves independently and grew to a point where they could approach a hierarch to start a mission, and on investigation it was clear that these faithful were not pushing weird doctrines or blatant immorality, they could certainly find a bishop willing to give them a try.
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735 Likes: 6
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735 Likes: 6 |
This is how most ROCOR parishes are started. See my posts about the new Churches in Salt Lake City, Cincinnati, etc. I have done many a reader service in a living room, kitchen, even a 2 car garage. Where the faith is strong, God provides.
Alexandr
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133 |
Alexander, once again I must agree with your post 100%, Canon VII of the Third Ecumenical Synod says it all!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,441 Likes: 5
Cantor Member
|
|
Cantor Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,441 Likes: 5 |
In today's climate, if a group of laity met and developed themselves independently and grew to a point where they could approach a hierarch to start a mission, and on investigation it was clear that these faithful were not pushing weird doctrines or blatant immorality, they could certainly find a bishop willing to give them a try.
Fr. Serge Fr. Serge, we are speaking about the Ruthenian BCC in America. Such a group would be told to disband and simply join a parish. The Heirarchy does not have the time to "entertain" such ideas and they're are simply not enough clergy (even if the local RC heirarch is willing to offer a bi-ritual) I've unfortunately seen this before...you are correct however, if someone wanted to do "such a thing" they would need to approach a heirarch of another jurisdiction such as the UGCC or the Romainians...possibly the Melkites...
Last edited by Job; 01/13/07 09:38 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
