www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The New Liturgy's Effect on Spiritual Life

Michael,

You attended the worst of the worst and that helped you to focus your discernment? I should think by attending the best of the best it gives one a more accurate sense of what he or she is leaving.

God bless,

Gordo

Did I state that I attended the worst of the worst? I don't remember typing that.

Michael

Michael,

No you didn't type that. I assumed that when you said you did the same thing as InCogNeat3s, you meant exactly that. My apologies for misunderstanding.

God bless,

Gordo

Yes, there are good Latin parishes. I am organist for one. The church is French Gothic, with approximately $3 million worth of Austrian stained glass in the windows. The statuary is classic, the priests follow the liturgical books, the music is good, and there's no nonsense. It's a beautiful and reverent atmosphere in which to worship. If you want to light candles, they are plentiful. I am Byzantine and wouldn't want to be anything else. However, those who look for abuses at the Latin Rite church where I play, would be wasting their time.

This morning I attended the last hour of Matins and the Divine Liturgy at an OCA Church. (They do not do full Matins)

Several things caught my attention. I found it "interesting" that we prayed for "OUR LORD METROPLITAN HERMAN," and for "OUR LORD BISHOP(Archbishop)________"

There was no exclusive inclusive language used to my knowledge. In fact we prayed things such as "PRIEST: FOR THE PEACE OF THE WHOLE WORLD, FOR THE GOOD ESTATE OF THE HOLY CHURCHES OF GOD, AND FOR THE UNION OF ALL MEN, LET US PRAY TO THE LORD. PEOPLE: LORD, HAVE MERCY."

Before The Great Entrance, Father came out onto the Solea, bowed, and said "Forgive Me My Brothers and Sisters."

The Curtain was closed for the cutting of the Lamb. Yes, the cutting of the Lamb. Some lay woman, lay man, or Priest did not pre-cut the particles.

The First Antiphon/Psalm 102 was sang in its entirety followed by The Little Litany.After the Little Litany the Second Antiphon/Psalm 145 was sang in its entirety. After the Second Antiphon the Hymn to the Only-Begotten Son, followed by what I suppose would be considered another Little Litany. Then we sang the Beattitudes. (Matthew 5:3-12)

The Litany of the Catachumens was taken.

The Anaphora was taken aloud. Father said that he says the Anaphora out loud because his Bishop says the Anaphora aloud, there would be a pregnant pause if he did not take the Anaphora aloud and the people would think he lost his place, and he also said that it would not make sense if the people affirmed things
that they could not hear.

The congregation prayed three pages of Prayers of Thanksgiving After Communion.

The lack of pews was great!

What was the discussion regarding, "Protestants trying to convert Slavs"? I am very interested in this topic.

BTW, keep the post up I enjoy reading them. This is helping me, so please ignore your critics.

Just to clarify - I am not criticizing InCogneat3s posts on his experiences visiting an OCA parish. I too have been blessed in the distant and recent past by my visits to many different Orthodox parishes.

Gordo

I think Gordo (is it Gordo or Gordon?) has some important things to say about this. We have to keep perspective. Comparing the worst of the Latin liturgy to the best of the byzantine liturgy is a kind of straw man argument.

I will say a few things, as one who recently left the Melkites to become Orthodox. I, too, took into consideration the state of the Mass in the Roman church and our relation to the Roman church as eastern Catholics. Of course, what was fundamental for me was not any particular manifestation of the liturgy, but the fact that I could no longer, in conscience accept the claims of Rome. Now, that being said, I do think that there are times when the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (in practice), are almost two entirely different faiths. I am not saying that this is the reality in substance. It is just an impression, or perhaps a fear that one has. I think that the eastern rite Catholics (of whom the Melkites I am most familiar with, being one for 12 years) are close to the Orthodox, but I am really not so sure that the Latin Church, at large, is close to the Orthodox faith. I think that this is something for Church leaders to consider when they are reforming/implenting the Divine Liturgy. By moving in the direction of the revisionists within the Latin Church, the BCC is dangerously moving further away from Orthodoxy. Now I understand that his holiness, Pope Benedict XVI wants to fix things and I think that he is the right man for the job. However, I just recently read a news report that he is facing stiff opposition from Curial leaders. If the news reports are right, the majority of the curial leadership is opposed to many of the kinds of reforms that Pope Benedict wants to implement. This does not bode well.

I will just say in conclusion that it is important to take into account what is going on in these latin parishes with their strange implementation of the Mass. But Gordo is right that one should also take into account those parishes where the Mass is celebrated with dignity and reverence. God bless.

Joe

I told some OCA parishioners about my experiences fulfilling my Sunday Obligation by attending 4:00 P.M. "Weekend Masses." I asked someone if he had ever seen a girl wearing an Alb and a Pectoral Cross. He said "No, but I have seen a girl in a Cassock and Sticharion at St. John the Baptist Ruthenian Catholic in Pittsburgh." (He said that there are about 6 St. John the Baptists in Pittsburgh some Catholic and some Orthodox and that he does not remember which one it was exactly) He said that a relative of his coined the term "Waccolytes" for Female Altar Boys.

Then another OCA parishioner mentioned that there was another crazy Protestant phenomenon in Pittsburgh. He said that there is a Presbyterian Church with Onion Domes complete with Three Bar Crosses on the roof. The Church was built to convert Slavs. He also said that there is a Priest/Professor at Sts. Cyril and Methodius that actually posesses a Protestant Pamphlet titled something similar to "How to Convert the Slavs from Their Idolatry." Then I brought up that Orthodox Catholic was telling us about Churches in Alaska or Canada? that are called something ridiculous like "The Ukranian Orthodox Catholic Prebyterian Church of North America." This was a Byzantine Forum topic about a year ago. Apparantly the Protestants created this Church to convert Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukranian Catholics to Protestantism. According to Orthodox Catholic they went so far as to have full Iconostasis, minus Icons! Royal doors, Deacon doors, etc. but no Icons on the Iconostas.

Then the ex-Greek Catholics now OCAers kindly reminded me that the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is the only Church with a history of actually removing Iconostasis.

Dear InCogNeat3's,

I do believe the above comment is not fully correct. I recall a link posted around a year to year and a half? that showed the interior of a Melkite parish that would have virtually passed for a Tridentine Church. I do not recall observing an iconostas in the pictures of the early interior.

Just a clarification, sir.

Even though I do not feel it truly matters. Our Church underwent much persecution, here in the US and around virtually the entire world! Fighting to survive sometimes may require choices to be decided that not all would agree with wholeheartedly. I believe these parishes are results of a few of those decisions.

What is more important is how do we help these parishes restore their interiors to reflect the beauty of our Byzantine Rite?
Can we come together as a team or commitee, to think tank ideas for fundraising that could be successfully implemented through some type of cyberspace? Such as donations that are all funneled together and sold via E-Bay?

There are so many great minds here that a venture such as this would have to work!!!!

In Christ,

Michael

No worries. I can see how that might be assumed.

I am originally Roman Catholic and I know the best parishes, so the Latin liturgy was not the issue. I was feeling the sentiment and pangs of nostalgia for the church I was raised in, knowing that I might leave it all behind. It still bothers me in that respect. Nonetheless, the Byzantine church spoiled me rotten. I became Byzantine for the theology and scored a big bonus with the liturgy. The 55 minute Mass, even well done, was no longer satisfactory to me.

I was not just quitting the BCC, but all of the Communion under the Pope. Indeed, I had postponed transferring into the Ruthenian church deliberately due to my doubts, I didn't want to ask the bishop to accept me as long as I still carried those doubts.

So I was really leaving the Archdiocese of Chicago, not the Eparchy of Parma, and I wanted to know exactly what I was losing in the process.

I hadn't prayed so much before or since that time. BTW, I knew there was a new translation of the liturgy in the works, but I was actually looking forward to that, I did not expect it to be a problem. I left long before all the liturgical anxiety hit the internet. I thought the few people opposing the new liturgy at that time were probably just cranks and I ignored them. Everyone seemed to complain about the music, but I thought the new music was good. I had every reason to expect the new promulgation would be fine.

I had theological reasons for my departure. The coming liturgy did not figure into it.

Michael

If the Melkite Church in question was St. George's in Milwaukee, then it was never installed. When the Church was founded, it was built that way. It was later revitalized and "restored" to being a proper byzantine Church (sometime in the 1970s I think).
God bless

Joe

I visited this exhibition when it was in San Diego at the Timken:
Tradition in Transition: Russian Icons in the Age of the Romanovs

http://www.hillwoodmuseum.org/press/icons.html

They showed many similarities with Roman Catholic art of time.

I just want to say that I am not engaging in covert prosyletization. The point of my earlier post was to agree with Gordo that we should be careful in our evaluations and not simply attend church services that will inspire us to the decisions we really want to make. Any life-changing decisions that people make should always be based on conviction, not on temporary feelings of anger or hurt. I took 4-5 years before I finally made the decision to break communion with Rome, and I had no idea how the Antiochian Orthodox Liturgy down the street would compare to the Melkite Liturgy. I left a thriving parish that did a good job at liturgy, for a parish much smaller, yet spiritually thriving in its own way :0). Wherever we are at, we should be the best Christians we can be. But, fidelity to the prayer/liturgical tradition of our fathers is part of that. God bless.

Joe

I was not stating that the Professor held those views! From what I understand he had the pamphlet to keep as a curiosity. My guess is that he has the pamplet so that he could use it to demonstrate what Eastern Catholics are up against.

Again, I did not mean to accuse this Priest of having Protestant "Convert the Slavs" beliefs or of distributing Protestant Literature. That was never my intention.

"Are we all to abandon the Ruthenian Church and forsake our heritage or hold on to faith that our future may be better?"

Nope. And I am not Catholic Bashing. I am merely pointing out that Latin and Ruthenians are Catholic bashing by changing the goal of their Religion. The Revisionists are mocking Liturgies that are over a thousand years old.

Also, it is the Revisionists that are abandoning the Ruthenian Catholic Heritage.

"by the logic presented by some on this forum that the BCC deserves to disappear as a result of its own hierarchical mangement."

I hope that the BCC does not disappear. However, the Hierarchs and the others responsible for the Feminist Liturgy do deserve to be removed from their positions. Lovingly receive them back after repentance and establish an authentic Byzantine Catholic Monastery where they can live the rest of their earthly lives. Polluting and Dilluting the Faith is no laughing matter. This includes inserting or deleting words from the Creed. Even though some non-English speaking foreigners approved the adulterated Creed, it is inexcusable and warrants excommunication.