www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Liturgy is Promulgated!

There are many more flaws in the Revised Liurgicon than there are in the 1965 Red Book. The new one purposely changes what is accurate to what is seen as desirable in the minds of a few.

I suggest we stick to the old book that is accurate and not embrace the new one that is inaccurate. It is time for both the clergy and the faithful to act.

Ah, yes. Cantor's notebooks will be made available for those who want them and 7 CD's of recorded DL (possibly Vespers too) music is made available at a very low price-I believe 11 bucks,but don't quote me on that. A box set is also available but I didin't look carefully so I don't know what it is except that it is related to revised music,and words.Everything is being sold at cost price; no profit is being made. I also do not know if they're being given to each priest and then others have to buy them.


Peace,
Indigo

You will have a church to have the book in...it may not be yours...but I see you are from Rocky Hill...it's not too far to Trumbull or Danbury

Well, since the Camel's nose is in the tent, why don't we just go ahead and change the whole creed, none of this willy nilly small stuff. If they really want to make a stink they should just go all the way to make everyone feel included

Here is the inclusive creed, if I have in advertantly kept some small type of masculine pronoun in it then I fully admit my mistake and beg forgiveness.

I believe in one God, the Parent Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in Jesus Christ, Child of God, the only-begotten, born of the Parent before all ages. Light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Parent; through whom all things were made. For us and for our salvation, God came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became Human. God was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. God rose on the third day according to the scriptures. God ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Parent. And God is coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and God's kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, who proceeds from the Parent. Together with the Parent and Child God is worshipped and glorified; God spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

You know.... it was hard enough typing this without vomiting, I wonder how I will deal with this when I am required to chant it this way.

Dear Mr. Gibson,

Me thinks that you have inadvertently posted an excerpt of your *eminary Professor job application essay.

Have they (notice the gender neutral pronoun) offered you a position yet?

Of course you meant "and became one of us" right?

Oops...

Sorry...

I thought I was posting my essay on Mary's empowerment by striking off the shackles of the Patriarchal Jewish Temple by finding the female essence of God within herself.

I must watch my cutting and pasting.

Yes... the term us which is the universal term for people...

Unlike that squishy term "Man" and we all know that doesn't apply to everyone.

Assuming that all Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parishes won't have pews in the near future is as wishful thinking as them all having icon screens, Presanctified liturgies and proskomedia!;)

Ungcsertezs

I have been reading with great interest all of the comments, but, I really have to put both feet in here. This is not an attack, it is a clarification. I was one of the cantors singing that liturgy, and, I am also one of the church's Cantors. I'm really not sure if you and I were at the same liturgy since I was actually floored by the sound I heard coming from congregation below. From my vantage point, I could see about 2/3 of the people. Lo and Behold... Most were singing, admittedly, there were those that weren't. Jim, I'm really not sure that you and I attended the same liturgy if you didn't hear people singing. What I heard from the choir loft was not only cantors, PRIESTS, and laity singing, I heard the most beautiful responses filling that church. To say that the Cantors were the only ones singing is a mischaracterization, completely.
The other part that you left out was that for the first time, at least in my life in the church, a congregation applauding at the end of the liturgy. The number of people who came up to me personally after the liturgy to say that they haven't been able to sing like that in so long, and that it felt good to be able to, was nothing short of amazing to me. No, it wasn't just "old timers", it was people of every age that were there.
If the attempts at getting parishoners to sing are failing, perhaps it's because they aren't used to hearing it. If you wish to use it. Choose set portions of the liturgy.. sing them every week, get the people used to hearing them again and I gaurantee you that the walls will echo with such prayer as you've never heard. It took three weeks of Svjate Boze, done the same way to get them singing it again.

Again, my reply is not an attack, merely a rebuttal. The people in that church for our festival WERE singing, and singing with all of their hearts.

From my experience at a growing church in Ohio, Slavonic isn't such a big deal. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly beautiful and part of the Ruthenian tradition, but most people don't understand it. At our parish, for the people who are looking for an alternative to the Western Rite of the Catholic Church, it becomes an uncomfortable moment during the Divine Liturgy when Slavonic is sung. I am a cradle Byzantine, but realize too, that to grow our churches we must do what we can to showcase our tradition and minimize our ethnicity. If we hang our ethnic flag out, chances are the only people who will come will be that ethnicity.

I know of a Ukrainian Byzantine church in the area that does a Liturgy pretty close to the Red Book, so I have an option to go to that church to have Liturgy celebrated correctly. However it is sung in Ukrainian. That option is now out, as I don't understand Ukrainian, nor do I think ever will.

I love to sing Svjate Boze, but I doubt any newcomers would. It has to be used in small amounts -- the Slavonic Greatest Hits, or an all Slavonic Liturgy done every couple of months or so, in addition to an English Liturgy.

It's just reality.

What about the politically correct version?

I feel with significant preponderance in a solitary significant deity, the patriarchal figure whom is deemed to be omnipotent.
Creator of a dwelling place of etherial beings and earth .......
Nah.. never mind... It'll just make my head hurt

Good thing you stopped anyway. You already messed up with the inclusion of 'patriarchal'

This is like a new parlor game! I'm going to start playing this with friends! I'll call it "PC." Anyone else want to play?

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IMHO there is an easy fix.

We need some handouts that phonetically spell things out. A little "Slavonic for Dummies" might help too. People just need a little help and then they'll get it.

Maybe the church's acoustics are difficult. Singing was consistently slower than I am used, which indicates to me as a musician that reverberation is likely a problem there. Where there is reverberation, singers etc. all have to go slower to be understood. It also effects enthusiasm. You may say everyone sounded enthusiastic from upstairs, but I didn't hear it downstairs. And where I was downstairs, left side almost under the loft itself, I could only hear the cantors upstairs singing. There may also be spaces in the nave where you don't get an accurate hearing of the whole. Maybe people warmed up as the service continued. The service was well attended. I had to leave at noon, just after the sermon, but had been to an English service already.

You are right about gradual introduction of new material, of course, whether it is Slavonic or English. And I suppose there are those who would say it is only a preference that causes Slavonic not to be done. But, there is insufficient interest in my parish for me to introduce it so far, and it would require pastoral approval as well. If I were being asked by folks to do it, I would ask my priest about it. Sad to say, I have yet to attend a Slavonic service in a BC parish where everyone sings enthusiastically, but maybe some day I'll luck out. I have heard enthusiastic Slavonic in an OCA parish, where those singing enthusiastically were no more than first generation Americans.