www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is it a sin to oppose the Liturgy? (From Stephanie)

Yes, you are wrong. The vernacular in our culture is standard, American English. Not the English demanded by the secular feminists. Note the difference between sacred language and profane language (profane = outside the temple). �Inclusive language� is profane. Read Liturgiam Authenticam and the Vatican directives and you will see for yourself. Why do you so willingly reject the testimony of Rome?

The criticism on this board is nothing compare to the criticism of the faithful from the Revisionists.

There was no decision to be made but to finally decide to be faithful to our own liturgical tradition. It is never too late to be faithful.

We are unwanted by the Orthodox because we are unruly children who do what we please with God�s gifts instead of being faithful.

Yes, carry our crosses! And each time we are less faithful to our own tradition our crosses become heavier. Each time we are less faithful to our tradition more people leave.

..

Alex,

I'm stunned by what you just wrote (and I editted your post to focus on what stunned me--please accept my apologies for doing so).

If I understand you correctly, there is an EM in a Byzantine Rite parish? How? What does this person do liturgically?

How is this decision justified?

If we need to form a new thread for these questions, please feel free to do so, Moderators. I truly am stunned by such a statement, and I want to find out if perhaps I misinterpreted the statement--and if I didn't, I want to try to understand the reasoning involved. My apologies if I offend anyone.

+Fr. Chris

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Don't be shocked. There is so much of strange things happening!!!!

Here in my city, the Ukrainian Catholic church uses women as well as men as Eucharistic Ministers. They dress in a stikharion and give communion along side the priest

When there is a funeral at this church many of the Orthodox community come because we know the individual and are, to put it simply, "blown out of the water by what we see.

A Statue of the Mother of God of (Lourdes?)is now in a corner. And this custom of hand shaking takes place generally after the Nicean Creed.

Z Bohom
Unworthy
Nycholaij

I don't think the custom of handshaking would be so objectionable. I suggest that a three-fold kiss might be preferable.

Michael

I too am shocked, not only about the inovation of the EM in Eastern tradition but also that a person would consider leaving the Church just because of an EM. What about Christ's will of Unity for the Church? Certainly that is the more weighty matter.
Stephanos I

Exactly!

Because unity with Church teachings across all ages is so important and critical, then why innovate such a thing as a Eucharistic Minister in the BCC? Hasn't it been said that the BCC should remain 'true to her Eastern (i.e., Orthodox) roots', and therefore not do such a thing?

But perhaps I misunderstand the teachings involved, and so I would like to learn the justification for such a move.

+Fr Chris

Re: "Eucharistic ministers"
I can't speak for the Ukrainian Church but the Ruthenian BC church has has address this in particular law:

Canon 709 �2

�l. In cases of true necessity, deacons may distribute the Divine Eucharist.

�2. In the same cases, even minor clerics and members of the laity can be designated to distribute the Divine Eucharist.

1o. A parish may have one person designated for this purpose plus another for each 75 communicants at the Liturgy.

2o. The metropolitan Liturgical Commission is to prepare a program of training that includes theological and spiritual formation, the selection process for candidates and a practicum.

3o. Those persons may take communion to those who, by reason of illness, infirmity or age, cannot attend the Divine Liturgy regularly.

4o. If any priest or deacon is present at the Liturgy, in any capacity whatever, he is to make himself known to the principal celebrant and shall distribute the divine Eucharist, vested insofar as possible, and taking precedence over any minor cleric or lay person present.

Now, please don't shoot the messenger. This was promulgated after the Eastern Canon Law was accepted, in 1999. It should never be abused for reasons of convenience but allow "pastoral economy" when necessary. For example with our lack of vocations if a priest has three (large to medium) parishes this will allow him to minister to all three. I would think this is better than going "priestless" and precipitating a greater abuse.

I ask that forum member take this law in its full context and not excerpt parts of it and misinterpret its intention.

Fr Deacon Paul

Fr Deacon Paul,
Exactly! While it is true that it should not normaly be a part of the Eastern Custom and practice, it certainly should not be a reason for breaking communion with the Church.
Stephanos !
And most assuredly Eastern Catholics need to keep and even at times purify their liturgical practies to be fully and authenticaly in line with their Church usage.

Always remembering of course, that they have been told to be faithful to their roots - and the continued latinisations in some areas are not helpful

Christ Is Baptized in the Jordan!

Hello

I wonder if the lack of a sense of sin has anything to do with so many receiving communion? And, now great lines of individuals simply come to receive.

I think that in the past, there was a greater regard/respect/understandin/awesomeness??? for the Holy Eucharist.

It seems that to-day ( some ) people just go up as if it was just part of the ritual with out that regard/ ( I wish I had the right word ) for the Holy Sacrament.

I don't know. I trust in the wisdom of others here in this forum who might have a clearer understanding.

Z Bohom
Truly unworthy now
Nycholaij

Several years ago I began using Economic thought to oppose this hideous innovation. Put simply, if noone gets in the Communion line in which the lay person is distributing Communion, the practice will eventually stop. If there is 0 demand for lay people giving Communion in Church, the Supply will be reduced to 0. I simply leave the line that I would normally be in and then I get into a line in which a Bishop, Priest, or Deacon is distributing Communion. Eventually if there are 0 people in the lay peoples' Communion lines and everyone in the Major Orders Clergy Communion lines the practice should stop. Fortunately I have never had to do this in a Byzantine Church, however I did this for years in the Roman Church.

"I ask that forum member take this law in its full context and not excerpt parts of it and misinterpret its intention."

There is nothing to misinterpret. The intention is not a Holy one.

I also followed this practice before I finally came East - and the telling off that I was given by the Parish Priest was very forthright - he admitted that he could not really refuse me Communion - but he left me in no doubt as to what he thought of my action.

The topic of this conversation has strayed considerably. Again, the question, Is it a sin to oppose the RDL. We apparently have priest spouting off that it is, are they correct?

I think this question gets to the heart of the matter.

As for me, I must confess to making intemperate statements regarding certain bishops. I need to remember to honor the office even while disagreeing with the decisions that may come out of it.

May God forgive me.

Brother Ed

PS I first overheard others making such intemperate statements regarding our bishops. Folks, watch what you say!! Others, some of whom are converts and are not fully grounded yet in Catholic behavior, ARE LISTENING!!!