www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Is it a sin to oppose the Liturgy? (From Stephanie)

I think that most people will not notice the inclusive language, unless they are really aware of it. However thankfully "N, our bishop who God loves" was changed back to "N, our God-loving bishop." THAT many would notice and cringe at, talk about "exclusive" language.

Does anyone know if there will be any officail catechetical materials explaining the use of inclusive language? Will any explicit mention be made of its employment in the revised translation?

Well, I think many folks felt Father David's book would shed some light on this.

Dear Friends,

I once read here a while ago that the BCC new liturgy was also, in part, intended to prevent BC's from going over to the UGCC.

After reading more about it, I can assure you that the reverse will be more likely . . .

Alex

My comment was based upon what you wrote:

So you are saying that we ought not to comment until we see the text at the same time you are saying that we have seen the text.

At least you now agree that some of the criticism has some merit. I can assure you anyone who examines the Revised Liturgy in the light of day will find a lot to criticize. Our bishops are running away from our authentic tradition in favor of their own ideas. They are doing it because they are embarrassed of who we are. They want to make us more like the Roman Catholics.

There is where your analogy breaks down. The Pope is not in favor of inserting inclusive language in ancient Creeds and Liturgies. Remember the controversy about the Catechism on this very issue? In fact it has been suggested publicly by one of the members of IECL that Rome may be wrong on this one. A rather bold and "faith shaking" statement!

I might add that such a bold and faith shaking statement is made by those whose very identity is defined by their union with Rome!

Dear father Paul,
I must take exception to your statement as presented here. It is a rather distorted summary of the historical facts.

In brief:

It was Saint Photius who approved the use of Slavonic in the liturgy (which took the brothers some years to prepare properly) to the chagrin of some Byzantines, no doubt!

The Pope subsequently (years later) gave his approval as a way of protecting the delicate situation of the Byzantine-rite missions from the Franks (it did not ultimately work). Much to the chagrin of some Latins, I am sure!

Perhaps this made some Byzantines doubly chagrined, who's to tell? I suppose one could assume that some Byzantines would have preferred the Pope insisted on a Latin rite liturgy instead!

Michael, that sinner

Dear brother Alex,
Might I say, I hope that you are right. I have no desire to see these troubles among my friends.

Perhaps you could make use of your extensive contacts in your church to persuade the priests around Chicago and elsewhere to cease reciting the liturgy in English, and chanting it instead.

There would likely be an immediate positive response from the many seekers at present.

I mean no offense, I hope the suggestion is taken in the positive spirit it is intended.

Michael, that sinner

Dear Friend,

Yes, you are right - the problem in our church, as elsewhere, is contained in the adage, "Co Popyk, To Typyk!"

In my in-laws' parish, there are all kinds of innovations and their source has become clear - the people attend the Novus Ordo and seem to think that whatever the Latins have, we, as "Catholics too" should have as well.

They read, for example, the epistle in Ukrainian and English. The person who reads it in English is a woman . . .

They have a Eucharistic Minister - only because their nearby Latin parish has one. The fact that they are a small parish and don't need an EM or that EM's aren't our tradition - no matter.

And to speak up will guarantee nasty feelings all around.

Perhaps we should all just go over to Orthodoxy?

Alex

I do love a quote by + Pope Pius XII..."Let the rule of belief determine the rule of prayer".

james

Alex - for pity's sake - we have to be welcoming to other folk.

In my parish there are plenty of people who do not have a large amount of Ukrainian.

If we - and I'm sure that we are not atypical - do not use English then we will die - and my Parish will within the next 20 or 30 years:(

We do use English for readings - well if we don't then many will not understand - I was told by me SF that I have to take the readings in English with me every week. Well let's correct that -- we do when our chanter is gracefully permitting it- his view is that we are Ukrainian so everything has to be in Ukrainian - sermon - announcements etc

Our children are few in number and our numbers are diminishing - why ??

We all know the answer - but I'm there - and there I will stay

Alex:
It seems to me that you object to having a woman read Holy Scripture in the liturgy? If that is indeed the case, why do you object?
Ryan

Michael,
My point is that Sts Cyril and Methodius made a radical break from Tradition that, in the least, raised eyebrows and probably raised accusations of "anathema" both in the East and West.People were just as opposed to change then as they are now.
My example was abbreviated to emphasize the point that our Patrons made a "disturbing" change; not to patronize Rome but broaden the context.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the pre-Vatican II advantages of Eastern Christianity over the Western Church was the use of the vernacular. What is the vernacular in our culture today?

100% of the Church will not satisfied with the revised Liturgy; nor were they with the present one. We should have more faith in the Holy Spirit that It will guide my Church.

Criticism and pointing out errors is easy (not regarding your comments Michael, but much of the negative discussion in the other threads); making the perfect decision 100% of the time is impossible. Let us put our Church in God's hands and pray for His Wisdom.

as posted by 1 TH 5:21

We are a "curiosity" to the Roman Church and an unwanted stepchild to the Orthodox it appears. We should be able to relate well to the early Christian Church and its relationships with the Romans and Jews. Maybe we should carry our crosses and become close communities as they did.

May God be with you all,
Fr. Deacon Paul

Unlike the West the East has retained the 7 fold ministry of ordination. A reader is ordained and that is the reason some object that they read or do any of the other ministries of liturgy. I would guess that it is the reason behind the opposition. Maybe someone else would like to comment.
Stephanos I