www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall How to remove heresy from our society?

Hello!

Last sunday I went to a famous restaurant here where I live and there were some blonde foreign girls singing, they weren't particularly interesting (the music either) but when they finished singing they offered us some CD's recorded with their music: "if you buy this you'll help children under our care". It seemed cute at first to see some foreign ladies helping our children but then I read they belonged to an Evangelical group.

How evil! Taking advantage of our children to spread their sect in our country! And the worst thing, they're everywhere, they visit your houses in the middle of the morning, they sell heretical cassettes outside schools and now you can't even go to your fave restaurant to eat because you'll also find the heretics proselitizing.

To make it worse, if the authorities act against them you'll find the "Religious Freedom Report" by the Department of State saying there is intolerance, abuse against religious freedom and violation of human rights! Brave people who have had enough courage to expell Mexican and foreign preachers and agitators from their communities are labeled as persecutors. They forget that our people also have the right to practice their religion without being molested and stalked by the others.

They divide and destroy families; they hate our flag and national symbols; they deny the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; they blaspheme against the Blessed Virgin; they refuse to collaborate with the community in religious celebrations such as the Day of the Dead, Christmas and Easter; they sponsor politicaly-motivated tv-programmes supporting the war on Iraq, the supression of the Palestine people and other which have no relation to our country; and some even say God was once a man who dwelt on an earth!

The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches and other established religions seem unwilling to collaborate in the erradication of these groups for Ecumenical reasons. I believe that concerned citizens must start a campaign against them with our own sources such as the Internet, broshures and even preaching if necesary. To launch this campaign is to promote Patriotism and a militant form of Christian message that has been lost in the modern society.

The danger of the destruction of our lifestyle and culture by these groups is real.

What do you think???

Your post suggests to me that you harbor a great deal of animosity- if not hatred-towards Protestant Christians-especially Evangelicals. I suggest that you think through this matter again. While Protestants may indeed be in error about many things, most Evangelicals I know (including most of my friends and most members of my family) do not deny the divinity of Christ. Do you really think there is anything at all Christ-like about "the eradication of these groups"? How would you feel if you lived in and overwhelmingly Protestant nation that did not allow Catholic and Orthodox Christians to teach their faith? How would you feel if you lived in a nation that engaged in the "eradication" of Catholic and Orthodox Christians? I believe that you are gravely mistaken about this matter and suggest that your prayerfully reconsider your position.
Sincerely,
Ryan

It sounds to me as if the person (i.e., Mexican) must be describing one of the newer Christian-like groups (e.g., the Watchtower, Church of the Ladder Day Saints, etc.) rather than Evangelical Christianity. So, for example, the Watchtower (Jehovah Witnesses) do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, etc.

I do agree with Athanasius the L about the tone of the post, however.

I also do not like the tone of Mexican's post. There is nothing 'evil' about fellow Christians, and especially Evangelicals.

I know there is also a difference between Evangelicals and Pentecostals, and that their approach, mentality and ethos can be quite different and that many people get them confused. I would hope that the intellectual and well read posters of this forum are not getting these or *other groups* (such as those posted by PrJ) confused.

The only thing I would have understood, is if Mexican was upset because the people he encountered were discounting, dismissing, and/or undermining the practices and faith, as well as the traditions, of Catholic Christianity which is the traditional soul of Mexico. This does sometimes happen in the clash between Christian faiths and is blatantly wrong! It is especially distasteful when done in traditional Christian countries, Orthodox and Roman Catholic. Other's religious cultures should not be eradicated by the American Protestant culture.

Neither side should ever view the other side as 'evil' or try to compete and/or poach for congregants.

Therefore, though I do understand Mexican's concerns, and I understand his emotions, I would caution him to chose his words more thoughtfully, or he is only contributing to the same mentality he proposes to loathe.

In Christ, our Saviour,
Alice, Moderator

Alice,

An ounce of poison is still poison and can kill you. All Protestant Churches have some level of poison in them. Some more than others...

Perhaps one of the greatest poisons of our time in not physical in nature at all but Spiritual. And in a way I can see the point of the post. However we are to show love to even our enemies are we not?
The best was to erradicate heresy is to to live by the truth and the Christian virtue of love, that these things are overcome.
Stephanos I

You can love them but Hate their false religion at the same time.

I do agree that error should be called error - and a spade called a spade, etc. However, I think we are supposed to combat the Protestants by proclaiming the truth. That's our best weapon. That said, I do think some of our leaders of recent times, will have some serious accounting to do for being involved with every fashionable cause, but having no interest in preaching the eternal truth of the Gospel message. Granted, that might get a few of them run out of town if they did preach truth, but they would be in good company - St. John Chrysostom comes to mind.

I agree with PrJ that Mexican is talking about cults like Mormons (who believe that God was once a man!) and Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists who do not celebrate or recognize Christian feasts like Christmas and Easter. There is a difference between these cults and Protestant Christians. They are quite simply cults and not sects. Their theology is widely divergent from Protestantism and many are a strange mix of Masonry, Theosophy and other dangerous beliefs. In Russia and much of the East, these types of groups are considered so dangerous that they are banned.

Hello

I should have clarified that my post did not refer to Lutherans, Presbyterians, and other established groups within Protestantism which do not proselitize or act agresively trying to convert people to their religion.

Regarding the Evangelicals and acknowledging that many hold respectable moral values and strongly oppose all kind of vices, I dislike the fact that they have taken the name "Christian" as their private property, making other Christians think that they should call themselves differently (in my country they would sometimes ask "Are you Catholic or Christian?"). Unlike other Protestants who have adopted more orthodox views on issues like sola-scriptura, universal salvation or sola-fide, Evangelicalism embraces the extremist Protestant view with pride. The fact that it has the possitive aspects I described above, as well as their Christ-centered message makes them the most dangerous, as people would believe they become "true Christians" by joining the sect, or that "Christ has become their personal saviour" through the sect. It has been my personal experience that members of these sects refuse to collaborate with the Day of the Dead celebrations, Posadas (Pre-Christmas parties) and Holy-Week traditions.

It is also very interesting to see Evangelical preachers who are certainly not foreign (their skins being probably darker than mine) appearin on TV channels for hours dedicating their time to politics (specialy international politics according to an ideology that makes me remember British Israelism and the Manifest Destiny) favouring Globalization, War on Iraq, the refusal by Israel of the Palestinian rights, and other. I certainly respect people who supports all these causes but why not leaving them for political debate programmes and conferences? Who's behind these groups, so that they can pay such amounts of money to have these opinions exposed publicly, mixed with religious messages? And why here or in Eastern Europe where the common people have no connection with Israel or the reasons that motivated the War on Iraq? Why is it so convenient for them to expose these views?

Pentecostals and Evangelicals tend to reduce Christianity to a mere "personal relationship", a "personal experience" that would lead to worthy goals (economic power, success) and reject the spiritual, eternal and divine possibility of a higher union with God that Apostolic Christians have through the sacramental life.

I strongly reject any form of violence, but I do believe the communities have the right to deny entrance to preachers and proselitizers. If they blaspheme openly and say that our countries (Orthodox or Catholic) are not Christian until the people convert to the sect, why can't we expose the heretical nature of their religion as well as their potentialy divisive activities?

Some of you folks simply do not realize how nasty some variants of Protestantism can be. This is not your fault. You have been in the Truth since you left the cradle, and unless you have actually been IN one of these groups, you don't know the damage they can cause. They put on a good show outwardly, but when you get in deeper with them, you see the "real" side of what they are doing to people.

Fundamentalism in particular is nothing more than a large, dysfunctional family. People I have met from Fundamentalism -- having been one myself for 13 years and having walked in those circles -- tend to NOT exhibit the love and grace of Christ, but rather an extremely intolerant and bigoted view against everyone and everything else, including other Fundamentalists with whom they don't see eye to eye!! How many times did I hear another Fundamentalist being scalded from the pulpit of our assembly because he didn't believe exactly as we did on certain items of the faith. Talk about a lack of unity.

Evangelicalism tends to be a bit more irenic and tolerant of certain things (you are allowed a bit of wine to drink, ciggies if you want, and you can go to movies and wear your hair longer as a guy!) but they are still a distinctly nasty anti Catholic and anti Orthodox varient of Protestantism.

One of the worst things about them, and what I saw in Mexican's post that you guys seemed to miss, is that they regard all Catholic and Orthodox countries as a "mission field" and it is their job to come into other countries and make converts. In doing so, they fracture families, cause strife and unrest, and destroy the culture. They teach falsehoods regarding the Church, justification, sanctification, the Sacraments, and our Blessed Lady.

A Presbyterian missionary I knew when I was in the PCA confided to me one day that the greatest challenge to mission work was to find missionaries who respected the native culture. To the Eastern Indians with whom he worked, there was an intrenched idea that to become a Christian meant to get a western three piece suit and cut your hair in a western style. That is not Christianity, but more often than not, that is the kind of conversion you see taking place in countries outside of America.

And finally, does untruth have a right to the marketplace and to the dissemination of its false ideas? Why is there so much respect given to people who handle the Christian Faith in such a sloppy, lackadaisical, and patently dishonest manner? Words mean things, and words have a great effect upon how we live. The teaching of "faith alone" by Luther in Germany resulted in Germany becoming a moral cesspool within 40 years of his inventing that idea. I have to wonder how many souls are in hell tonight cursing Luther because they trusted him and thought that their deeds didn't matter because they were justified by "faith alone".

Why don't we put a higher premium on Truth and have a greater respect for it so that we are not so friendly with those who come to our communities and try to disrupt them with their falsehoods and distortions? I think that Mexican was stating his concern for the chaos that enters a community when these people come in with their man made ideas.

Bluntly put, I have a great deal of respect for the Russian government's banning of foreign missionaries. Perhaps they understand something that we need to understand regarding these missionary types and what they are up to.

It is one thing to be charitable in ordinary life to those who are outside the Truth. Thank God that folks were with me when I was an arrogant, know-it-all Protestant with a bad attitude towards the Faith. It is quite another to be chummy with folks whose sole motive is to come in and teach untruth, disrupt your families, mess up your theology, put you under bondage of false ideas, and generally make a train wreck of your community.

Anyway, that's my .02 for what it is worth. (Which probably ain't much, but I've never been shy to say what I think!)

Brother Ed

Dear Mexican,

You said:


I say:

Prselitizing to others is wrong, regardless what denomination it is. Edifying and preaching the Bible though is another thing. As regards the Presbyterians, and other groups such as Anglicans, Methodists, etc., many of them have fallen into complete heresy and cannot even be considered Christian religions anymore.

You said:


I say:

I agree with you there. Some of them believe that if one becomes born again in the 'spirit', they have become a Christian and that's all there is to it. It's unfortunate that so many in so many denominations are 'elitists'. They can't be differently. It's spiritual immaturity.

You said:


I say:

Actually the other Protestants that you refer to have now fallen into heresy. The Evangelicals in one sense are true Christians, because they sincerely believe in what they practice. That they see only the faults within 'all' in other denominations, and do not try to understand why others have different practices merely shows their ignorance. But again, it's spiritual immaturity. Now mind you, I am not speaking of those who are incapable of edifying others, and can only bash other faiths. They surely are sects.

You said:


I say:

I don't know what the Day of the Dead celebrations are, or Posadas, but they might consider them carryovers from pagan holidays. I know Christmas was once banned in America because the customs that were practiced in England were pagan and definitely un-Christian.

You said:


I say:

I think that they favor globalization because it will bring prosperity to your nation and keep it from falling into a communist and socialist state. Right or wrong, that is their opinion.

You said:

I say:

No one is behind these groups. They sincerely believe in what they state. As for Israel, they follow the Bible and believe that Israel belongs to the Jews. Again, their motive is 'America and democracy' centered, and 'Israel' centered. They are what they are.

I also think that they fear Mexico might become a Communist state and are trying to combat it. Chavez's close contact with the Iranian leader is frightening.

Zenovia