www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Pewbook: Compare/Contrast changes found

I based this off the InterimPewBookNov2006.alt.pdf and the Divine-Liturgy-Book-1997.pdf .. Both found in this forum .. I didn't look at all the musical notes, just the ones that stuck out.

I personally made a post before about how a few words shouldn't matter, but after reading this a couple times, I almost feel like a stranger. I picture myself at the DL and everyone is going to stumble, if we even attempt this as a Parish. Most of us know the mass from heart as it is.
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First Antiphon:
new: Shout joyfully to the Lord of the earth, sing praise to his name, give to him glorious praise. Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us. Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen. Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, Save us.

old: Shout joyfully to the Lord of the earth, sing praise to his name, give to him glorious praise. Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us. Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen. Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, Save us.


Hymn of the Incarnation:
new: Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen. O only begotten Son and Word of God, Who being immortal, deigned for our salvation, to become incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary, and became man without change, you where also crucified O Christ our God, and by death have trampled Death, being One of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us.

old: Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen. O only begotten Son and Word of God, Who, being immortal, deigned for our salvation, to become incarnate of the Holy Mother of God, and ever Virgin Mary, and became man without change, you where also crucified O Christ our God, and by death have trampled Death, being One of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us.

Third Antiphone:
new: Come let us sing joyfully to the Lord; let us acclaim God our Savior. O Son of god, risen from the dead, save us who sing to you. Alleluia!

old: Come let us sing joyfully to the Lord; let us shout with joy to God our Savior. O Son of god, risen from the dead, save us who sing to you. Alleluia!

Gospel:
Celebrant: Wisdom! let us stand listen to the Holy Gospel. Peace be to all.
new: and to your spirit
old: and with your spirit

Celebrant: A reading from the holy Gospel according to <name>.
new: Glory to You, o Lord, glory to You.
old: Glory be to You, O Lord, Glory be to You

???The whole Litany of Offering is gone???

Celebrant: Peace be with all
new: and to your spirit
old: and with your spirit

Creed:
new: ... begtten not made, one in essence with the Father ...
new: ... for us and for our salvation ...
new: ... He rose not the third day, according to the scriptures ...
new: ... He acended into heaven ...
new: ... and He is coming again in glory ...

old: ... begtten not made, of one substance with the Father ...
old: ... Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven ...
old: ... and He rose again on the third day accordin to the sciptures ...
old: ... and He ascended into heaven ...
old: ... and He will come again in glory ...

Celebrant: Let us stand aright, let us stand in awe, let us be attentive to offer the holy Anaphora in peace
new: Mercy, Peace, a sacrifice of praise
old: The offering of peace, the sacrifice of praise.

Celebrant: Let us lift up our hearts
new: We lift them up to the Lord.
old: We have them lifted up to the Lord.

Celebrant:Let us give thanks to the Lord
new: It is Proper and Just.
old: it is proper and just to worship the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity one in substance and undivided.


Take Eat/Take Drink:
Amens are one note not many as before.

Celebrant: our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorus Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary..
new: It is Truely Proper to glorify you, O Theotokos, the ever-blessed, immaculate and the mother of our God. More honorable then the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious then the Seraphim, who, a Virgin gave birth to God the Word. you truely the Theotokos, we magnify.

old: It is Truely Proper to glorify you, who have born God, the ever blessed, Immaculate and the mother of our God. More honorable then the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious then the Seraphim, who, a Virgin gave birth to God the Word. you truely the Mother of God, we magnify.

Celebrant: Peace be with all
new: and to your spirit
old: and with your spirit

Celebrant: Bow your heads to the Lord
new: To You O Lord.
old: To You O Lord. To You O Lord.

Celebrant: Approach with fear of God and with faith
new: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. The Lord is God and has revealed himself to us.

old: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. God the Lord has revealed himself to us!

Celebrant: Blessed is our God always now and ever and forever.
new: Amen. May our mouth be filled with your praise O Lord, so that we may sing of your glory, sing of your glory. For you have deemed us worthy to partake of Your holy , divine, immortal, pure, and life creating mysteries ...

old: Amen. May our lips be filled with your praise O Lord, so that we may sing of your glory, sing of your glory. For you have deemed us worthy to partake of Your holy, divine, immortal and life creating mysteries ...

Dear brother in Christ, Matthew:

Most of the changes you point out can be summarized as 3 items, used consistently in the new translation:

1. "Glory BE to the Father..." in our current translation came most likely from the translation of the doxology that had been used by Latin Rite Catholics, and thus was used by Eastern Catholics as well. Almost all Orthodox translations I have (including very conservative ones) use "Glory to the Father...". Similarly, "Glory to You" rather than "Glory BE to you."

2. Similarly, Latin Rite Catholics used "Peace be WITH you", "And WITH your spirit (old)" to translate "Pax vobiscum" / "Et cum spiritu tuo", and "with" was correct. But the literal words in our Liturgy are "Peace be TO (you or all)", "And to your spirit." Again, by using "to", we are both being more literal and conforming more closely to Orthodox practice.

(By the way, the invocation and response are parallel: the priest says "Peace be TO all", and we respond "And TO your spirit." So it shouldn't be hard to pick up if we are actually listening to what the priest says."

3. We have two different pairs of words in Greek and Slavonic to refer to the Most Holy Virgin Mary: "Bearer / Birth-giver of God" (Theotokos), and "Mother of God." In our current translation, BOTH are translated as Mother of God; sometimes the former is translated as "Godbearer", which leads to confusion with the "TheoPHOROS", which means "One who carries God" and is used to refer to a different set of saints. So the translators, like most Orthodox who celebrate in English, left "Theotokos" in Greek. (There is precedent for this - whether in Slavonic on English, we still sing the Hebrew words "Amen" and "Alleluia" rather than translating them as "So be it!" or "Praise God!")

I found all of these a bit jarring at first, as you did, but understood the reasons once they were explained. I think these three points account for much of what you are seeing, and may make it easier to address the more substantive issues in the translation. I hope this helps!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

It struck me today as odd that a Greek word, Theotokos, has been used in the Divine Liturgy. Not too many meodern people know Greek. And yet, to make the Creed understandable to the modern mind, we have deleted a word from the Creed. Hmmm....

Interesting observation.

I am having a hard time working up a sense of outrage over this.

I suppose the Creed is a major point of concern, as well as abbreviations, but the rest of it (of what I have read so far) seems like a tempest in a teapot.

Michael, that sinner

By the way - it's probably worth point out that the opening words (old AND new translations) of the first antiphon are "Shout joyfully to the Lord, ALL the earth" - not "Shout joyfully to the Lord of the earth", which might have disturbing connotations... (see "Prince of this world", etc.)

Jeff

It seems to me that the new Creed is like the pinch of incense which was given to the pagan gods in the early days of Christianity. We have taken our most sacred Symbol and run it through the grist mill of modern secular academia to make it comport with the feminist agenda. But fear not, it's only a pinch.

"Lord of the Earth..." it sounds like a Marty Haugen or David Haas song!

*shudder* Which it why I pointed out the typo in Matthew's transcription. It's tricky because the Psalmist says speaks of the "presence of the Lord of all the earth", meaning the Lord God. But then there's Msgr. Benson's "Lord of the World", which means someone else entirely.

"Almost all" may be a bit of a stretch - Archbishop Kallistos Ware's translations are in widespread use and contain "Glory be".

The new hymn of the incarnation you have above is incorrect. The new translation consistently uses "Glory to" and not "Glory be to." You can hear it here [metropolitancantorinstitute.org].

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen. O only begotten Son and Word of God, Who being immortal, deigned for our salvation, to become incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary, and became man without change, you were also crucified O Christ our God, and by death have trampled Death, being One of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, save us.

As pointed out above, the introduction to the Creed is incorrectly transcribed above. You can hear it here [metropolitancantorinstitute.org].

Priest: Peace be to all
All: And to your spirit.
Deacon: Let us love one another that with one mind we may profess.
All: The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, one in essence and undivided.
Deacon: [The doors! The doors!] In wisdom let us be attentive!

You also missed a couple changes in the Creed, which you can hear here [metropolitancantorinstitute.org]. Mary the Virgin is now the Virgin Mary. (and with your Spirit) is now not an option and is removed. And I want to point out your typo as it does not say "He rose not" but "He rose on the third day," which is obviously a big difference.

Lastly, I think another typo might make the change in the Hymn to the Theotokos make more sense. I believe it previously said, "Who have borne God" not "born God." The emphasis was on her having carried God in her womb and that Christ was God and divine while there. The same misunderstanding you had is the very reason they chose to keep Theotokos instead of trying to translate it. You can hear that here [metropolitancantorinstitute.org].

A quick comment from a resident Latin...a majority of english texts used by the Latin Rite since VII read " Glory to the Father etc "...

Just a teeny note...

james, on the sidelines

You write "Not too many meodern [sic] people know Greek." There are scores upon scores of folks who know Greek, including the 12 million living in Greece. There are people that participate on this forum that know Greek!

But in Greece they haven't taken anthropos out of the Creed!

How many potential Byzantine Catholics in the United States know Greek? They will feel excluded when we use words they don't understand.

Don't know what I was thinking. Obviously I meant the filioque (and of the Son) is not an option any longer. Thankfully, the filioque doesn't appear to be in my vocabulary.