www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The shiny side of the coin.

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In Parma, we've had the proper prothesis and teplota for years

AMM-
Thank you for the clarification. I assumed this was standard practice throughout the Metropolia. It appears not. It might have been easier, in hindsight, to have all of the priests on the same page first?

No problem. At our parish one of the altar servers brings out the teplota for the priest at the elevation. I am not sure what the whole history is of this practice in the BCC, but I would think uniformity in regards to this practice would be desirable. I do recall reading somewhere it was one of the practices explicitly forbidden at some point, Zamosc maybe???


Also, I noticed this from before. Without wishing to enter the fray of moving to or fro, I must say I take issue with this statement.

You believe ACROD, OCA, or ROCOR would be good places for highly Latinized parishes to turn to in order to keep their Latinized worship preferences?

Oh no, I guess I misunderstood the original statement.

Carry on.

No AMM and Wondering--you misunderstood. I meant that if a Greek Catholic parish that is highly latinized is unwilling to accept the new Divine Liturgy because it would make them more eastern, then going to the OCA or ROCOR would not be feasible. These Churches are MUCH more eastern than the BBC of Pittsburgh and would most certainly not allow latinizations to continue. ACROD seems to be removing remaining latinizations fast than we are. I guess going to the Latin Church would be the only alternative for them.

John,
I understood. That's why AMM's response seemed odd, so I asked him to clarify. He clarified that he had misunderstood. Now we're all on the same page.

Based on what I've read, I hadn't realized that was a potential scenario, and thus I believe the source of my confusion.

Dear AMM,

I can quite understand your confusion! Part of the problem in this whole debate is the WIDE range of actual practice, where some parishes consider statues and kneeling to be part of the essence of the Greek Catholic rite - and others consider it a betrayal of our traditions if anyone kneels on a Sunday - simply saying "We can't allow the bishops to make us change!" can mean VERY different things in different circumstances.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Dear Jeff,

The idea that everyone has to do everything exactly the same way strikes me as a very Roman Catholic idea, and suggests how much we have strayed from our Eastern roots.

Uniformity can be so sterile and lifeless.

Change can be good or bad, in itself, it has no moral value. If it is change for the better, than it is good. If it is change for the worse, then....

Nick

There are parishes in Pittsburgh (they city?) who are thinking of leaving?

I find that claim dubious.

I don't think any parishes are thinking of leaving. But my pastor says that the priests are fed up with the way this has happened.

You can't breath life into an ill person, while standing on the patient's chest.

This kind of heavy handed autocratic despotism, is so far removed from what we expect from pastors, that it is more like 'church abuse' than anything else.

The bishops set up committees about protecting children from clergy abuse, but they just don't get it. This is a kind of abuse too, and I feel violated. Is there a committee somewhere who will come to my rescue, and pay me a million bucks for the pain that has been caused by revising the Liturgy?

But, I'd rather they kept the million, and left the Liturgy alone. My prayers were my treasure. Now, I will go to Church, and instead of my prayers, I will hear inclusive language, and other errors. I won't sing that stuff, so there is always the Jesus prayer instead. But is that the way to attend the Liturgy? Is that what these 'liturgists' and 'experts' really want?

Nick

Nicholas,

I believe it was very uncharitable for you to compare your suffering for not hearing the word men or for hearing the word Theotokos to the physical, emotional, mental, and physical suffering endured by child victims of sexual abuse. Comparing the treasury of prayers to the inviolate purity of a child is appalling. I think you ought to revisit your comparison and put things into proportion.

Dear wondering,

You have a point.

It may not be similar in gravity, but I think there are similarities.

I feel abused, and violated. My prayers are important to me. This plot was invented by a small group of clergy, and imposed upon unsuspecting parishioners without their consent.

I think the analogy is enlightening.

Anyway, maybe this experience has given me some insight, into how other victims of the Church feel.

I think the Revision of the Liturgy, and the terrible job the bishops did responding to clergy abuse, are both rooted in arrogance. Clerical arrogance must be exposed.

"the people should be quiet" "the people should submit and obey" "bishops know best" "no one should question a bishop" "don't question authority" "what do lay people know"

I find all that offensive too.

I don't underestimate the suffering endured by victims of child abuse. Not at all!

But don't underestimate the suffering caused by my Church, issuing these books with the threatening and intimidating language.

Nick

Dear Nick,

What sort of threatening and intimidating language are you speaking of?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff