www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Proskomedia and the Faithful in the New Divine Liturgy

Proper proskomedia should no longer be an issue. Since the Bishops have mandated the new DL, why not mandate proper Proskomedia? They could also mandate no pews, no more Saturday Masses, Vespers, Matins. How about proper temples with icon screens and Pantocrators?

Now I am really confused!

How can the Rite of Preparation be done with pre-cuts? Does the priest just recite all the words? Does he stab little crouton-sized pieces?

Michael

Interesting... Bread does not cut itself! Unless the priest is buying boxes of plain croutons then the prosphora still needs to be cut. Perhaps there is some person/group providing a 'service' of cutting up prosphora and selling little cubes? If so - it must stop!

I wonder how the Orthodox seem to breed these "super" people: faithful that can spend two or three hours at a time in church and sometimes more than once a week, priest who can serve for such times and still manage the strenuous work of cutting bread, etc. Truly amazing!

I think this is just another case of us not understanding "pastoral concerns", i.e. what the pastor feels like doing (or not doing).

I'll be brutally honest with you. You should be confused because if you could understand and rationalize this then there would be something wrong with you.

I'll be brutally honest again, if we ever expect the Orthodox to take us seriously and move towards any kind of union, then a very basic thing like proskomedia needs to be done the right way for crying out loud! Why in nearly every instance are we Byzantines the ones that short cut, chop up, ignore, and water down? The revised translation is yet another example in a long line of this.

Monomakh

OK - now to make a confession

I have now been a member of the UGCC for some 17 months and had been at DLs for quite a while before that and I have never yet been in a Church where the Proskomedia is yet 'done'

If I am lucky my Priest arrives at the Church about 20mins before DL starts - and then he greets everyone present individually - that's good BUT - we have pre-cuts they come from a wee box from his brief case [ oh and before you ask how I am aware of this - we don't have an Iconostasis ]

Perhaps one day I will be fortunate to experience this

"How can the Rite of Preparation be done with pre-cuts? Does the priest just recite all the words? Does he stab little crouton-sized pieces?"

All the prayers are said. There is of course a Lamb (2"x2"x1/4" square) that is incised crosswise and pierced with the lance. It is simply not cut out of the Prosphora at that time. The commemorations are done with the pre-cut particles (1/4" cubes). After all the commemorations are made the rest are placed on the diskos underneath the Lamb.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Interesting posts and fascinating discussion!

A little history can be helpful here (at least for me). Like most of our liturgical practices, the Proskeimede evolved over time and the "original" focus on the preparation of the people's offering was covered over/over-laden with symbolic gestures (such as the cutting of pieces to represent the Mother of God, the angels and saints as well as the commemoration at the Proskeimede of the living and the departed) and the service itself was privatized (clericalized??). (As an aside, I know of several priests who do a "public proskeimede" on Great and Holy Thursday so that at least their people can see and begin to understand what they do before each Liturgy.)

It is probably for this reason that when I was first trained as a priest and taught to serve the Liturgy, I was "discouraged" from doing a full proskeimede and taught only to prepare the Lamb and then to finish with the Prayer (i.e., without preparing the Mother of God, the angels and saints pieces, commemorating the living and departed, etc.). I should add that I chose not to follow that advice. This is because, as many priests can testify, the Proskeimede can be a time of intense personal prayer for loved ones, the parish, those offering the bread, etc.

My point in stating this is not to argue about "right" and "wrong" developments or to argue that any point in our liturgical history is better than any other but simply to point out that this service has developed and changed over the centuries. Thus, although I would prefer not to use pre-cut pieces, I am not overly alarmed or shocked at the practice. In fact, it reminds me that the liturgy is the living prayer of the living people of God in a particular time and place. Thus, I find the idea that the liturgy does not change to be both historically and theologically imprecise.

What a travesty that "Our Lady's Slave" has to witness this each Sunday. I laughed out loud at his comments, because we've lost our focus and it's no wonder the Orthodox think we're silly. If I were Orthodox, reading this thread wouldn't make me want to be in communion with us, would it you??? There is no hope for our Liturgy if we can't even begin it correctly. Shame on us.

This flies in the face of my experience where the entire time spent at the Prothesis table ranges from 45 seconds on a bad day, to a minute and a half on a good day. I find it impossible to believe that all the prayers are being said.

Once upon a time I kept a list of liturgical horrors such as this that I routinely am forced to witness. I wondered what would happen when I had accumulated a list of 95 theses. Thankfully, shortly after the list topped 50 I misplaced it, and have managed to resist the temptation to start a new one.

That accords with a memory of a post Father Petras made on CINEAST years ago. (Unfortunately, the archives are no longer available.) His comment on CINEAST detailed similar horror stories.

I do have to say I was heartened tonight to read these comments from Father Petras' website [davidpetras.com]:




So, one wonders. Apparently at least one person on the Liturgical commission agrees the use of pre-cuts is "the most serious latinization" in Ruthenian practice. But, one never hears about this in our newspapers or in catechesis prepared for the Faithful. Why?

I do think we have to be very careful about judging on the basis of what we see what a priest does or has not done. Let me explain with a true life story.

There once was a very holy priest-monk who served at a Convent (in California). This priest-monk wished to hide his ascetic labors from the nuns at the Convent. So he would get up very early in the morning (around 1 or 2am) to do proskeimede. He would pray for well over 5000 souls for hours. When he heard the nuns stirring, he would quickly finish and leave the Altar. A few minutes before the Hours he would hurriedly come into the Temple and perform a very quick proskeimede. Of course, the nuns were scandalized and often spoke amongst themselves of the lack of true piety or Orthodox sense of the priest-monk. It was only after he died that one of the nuns revealed that she had known what the priest-monk had done but had been asked to keep it secret until after his repose. (**This is a true story -- it was told me by the nuns themselves.)

My point is -- be careful of judging what others are doing. Often looks are deceiving!

Father, bless! Thanks for sharing that story. We should always be careful not to judge and what you shared is a good reminder.

What do other priests on the forum think? Do you agree with Father Petras that this is a serious latinization?

Are there any priests reading this board from the Ruthenian Church who do the traditional proskomedia and distribute antidoron at the end of Liturgy?

My former pastor most definitely did the Rite of Preparation. But antidoran was not distributed at every liturgy.

This is another very good reason to fully restore the Subdiaconate. It would fall to the Subdeacon to prepare the antidoran while the higher clergy are busy.

Michael

If the traditional rite of proskomedia was followed that would mean the Lamb would be cut out of a prosphora during the rite. What did he do with the leftover prosphora?

I had to look the word up. Father David had said:



Dictionary.com says:


Am I reading this correct? I assumed that a "Lamb" was divided up and served at communion in addition to pre-cut pieces. Is Father David saying that common practice is "no comminution" or dividing up of a "lamb"?

Surely I'm reading this wrong.