www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy New Pewbook: Compare/Contrast changes found

We've changed Orthodox to "of the true faith." It would follow that Catholic would be "universal." Consistency apparently isn't the main issue in the translation, though.

We already had "of the true faith" in the 65 translation and that was done because of the reaction that the word orthodox would have got at the time and would probably still get in some places. I don't agree with it but I understand the reasoning.

Because these are words that are ingrained in history. Christ, Amen, Alleluia, Hosanna. They are universal in most religions and are accepted without thought. These new changes introduced, Theotokos, Anaphora, and the others, if any, are very foreign to Americans, who by birth right, speak English.

Yes, these words will be ingrained in our children now that they are implemented and the old Liturgy terms forgotten. This might sound rude, look at it very honestly and bluntly, if we push away people who don't understand the words and there will be no children to learn this.

Most people in life want consistency. Most people in life want a routine which faith can be placed in and an understanding formed. I'm under the assumption these Greek words are meant to help the Byzantine Rite secure their own identity, but in reality we are losing more people then gaining as a whole. Do you honestly think making the Liturgy oblique by using direct Greek translations instead of words which each and every person already knows helps us grow? It's almost like the whole Eparchies lost WHO this Liturgy is for. It isn't for the know-it-alls on this website and it isn't for the Priests that the parishioners support with weekly donations of money and time. It is for the people to come closer to God, and 95% of the people on the street do not know Greek or how it even relates to everyday life, WHICH, is what the Church should be concerned about--How to impact everyday people, everyday in positive ways.

Matthew,

I am sorry but that is a bunch of bolonga. By your standard, we shouldn't change anything because people will always complain about change whether it is good or bad, because change is uncomfortable. Your absolutely right they want consistency, they want exactly what they are used to having. How many times has it been said on this forum that the Liturgy is not about the lowest common denominator? The Liturgy is literally the work of the people. It is work, it should be hard, it should challenge us. Does Greek relate to the everyday life of the average parishioner? No, of course not. But the Liturgy is not about everyday life, it is about heavenly realities. Even many of the English words we use in the Liturgy don't relate to everday life. They aren't supposed to. They are to point us to the sacred not the secular. On the practical side, I seriously doubt anyone is going to leave over the inclusion of two Greek words. Where are they going to go? The Orthodox where they will still hear Theotokos and probably a few more Greek words? The Latin Church so they can here Latin?

How many times have the documents of the Latin Church been cited here? The Latin Church is insisting on the use of at least some Latin, as Vatican II always envisioned.

What we are doing is far less drastic. What gets me is some of the very same people who gripe about our using "forever" rather than "ages of ages", or "Christians of the True Faith" rather than "Orthodox" are also complaining about using "Theotokos" rather than "Mother of God".

Fr. Deacon Lance

Since we seem now to be hung up on a few 'foreign' words rather than the whole disaster of the new Liturgies, lets take a closer look.

Theotokos Agreed, this is 'new' to most 'Ruthenians' (BCC & UGCC). Want to use English for Bohoroditse? Get your mouth used to "Birthgiver of God" or similar. "Mother of God / Matir Bozha / Miter Theou" is a different construct. If you want accuracy, do not use the same word/phrase for two separate terms.

Anaphora This is a new term?! Are the faithful of the BCC that separated from their Slavic roots? I'm fairly certain all Eastern Christian Slavs have in their native tongues the term Анафора. It may only appear liturgically (BTW, that's from a Greek term as well), but it's been there for centuries.

Liturgikon This one is bound to come up soon. Taking a look at my Ruthenian (Latinised derivative of the name Rus' / Русь) Recension (another Latin word) "Priest's Service Book" I see that it is called a "Liturgikon" (please note: this book, published in Rome, has as it's title a 'Slavonicised' Greek term) .

No one has ever stated that the changes brought in with the new Liturgies are 100% rubbish. I will admit that one can find the odd improvement. In terms of rubrics (if followed) there will be considerable improvements in some parishes. But this does not make up for the much greater number of shortcomings.

Do not give up the fight now that the Revision is 'official'! The Church is not required to accept/keep that which is of poor quality simply because "the work has already been done and money has been spent". If so, where is the cut-off? At what point do we cross from an 'acceptable loss' to the 'point of no return'?

Teach those who do not know. Write to those who can affect change. Pray!

OK now let the totally non Ukie speaking person who attends a completely Ukrainian languge Church get involved in this.

I have sat back and listened to all these moans - and to me many of them seem perfectly reasonable.

Your Liturgy has survived the test of time - and it gives a sense of timelessness.

Oddly enough I was talking about this sort of thing to the wife [ non-Ukie speaking , Non Ukie comprehending ] of one of our Members after Liturgy on Sunday.

She was complaining how difficult it was to cope - but then I realised that she was not using a bilingual book - which certainly makes my life easier and I tried to explain what it was that so enthralled me about the Liturgy - and I came out with timelessness, the beauty of the language, the poetry , the depth of meaning etc etc.

She started to look thoughtful - obviously these had never crossed her mind . I was asked how I coped - did I read cyrillic - of course I don't - I have enough of a problem with transliterated Ukrainian - but I'm beginning to recognise some words.

SO what has this to do with the topic in hand ??

Is it really necessary to stop using a word in Slavonic/Ukrainian/Russian or whatever and start using a term which is clumsy in English - or even worse is not an accurate translation of its meaning ?

Why use three words when one will do perfectly well ?

Even the dumbed down RC Liturgy still uses Greek - though many folk think it's Latin

A little education can help .

What has driven so many RCs away ? Yes they tell you it's the dumbed down Liturgy - described to me by one Priest [ and he is a most charitable man too ] as watered down , and banal - devoid of all beauty and he no longer enjoys it.

Are you really wanting to head that way ?

if not - well do something - let your voices be heard.

Since we're speaking of language, when will the Church Slavonic and Spanish language editions of the new Divine Liturgy, pew book, priest's book and cantor's book be released?

Has anyone officially contacted the Metropolia and asked this question?"

If so, what was the reponse? Can a scan of the response be posted please

John,

The Slavonic hasn't changed so there would be no need to re-publish the Liturgicon or Cantor Book. The Blue Book with Slavonic in Slovak alphabet could still be used by the people, but how often is there going to be an All-Slavonic Liturgy? The Hymns that are most often sung in Slavonic like the Trisagion, Cherubic Hymn, Many years, Eternal memory, Christ is Risen are known by heart although it wouldn't hurt to have a sheet with the Slavonic transliteration on them.

As for Spanish, I don't think there is large enough need to justify publishing all the books in Spanish. The Ukrainians and Melkites already have approved Spanish translations so those could be used. I think Holy Resurrection Monastery did an approved translation too. I know some parishes in Van Nuys chant some things in Spanish, but I am not aware of any Spanish only Liturgy being offered.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Pardon me, but you are either in a comical mood, or you are blind to what has been going on the the Pittsburgh Metropolia! How many English translations of the Liturgy have been published? The Ukrainians alone have a handful. Did the Metropolia use one of those? NO. So why would they change policy now? That would seem a bit hypocritical, to say the least.


OK, so only some parts of the Liturgy may be offered in Spanish. Are you saying that until there is a need for a full Spanish DL the Metropolia will offer no text? Do parishes do their "own thing"? Can they dare follow the " Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the CCEO" and use texts prepared by Orthodox Churches?

Then again, using Spanish might be pandering to "ethnicity" and we all know what the opinion of that is in the Metropolia.

Oh my, we do live in interesting times...

Fr. Lance--


You're right, the wording in OCS has not changed, but the Liturgy itself has. The old books don't have the music, just the wording. Quite honestly I am surprised that there was not even ONE setting of each of the major hymns frequently taken in Slavonic, in the new pew book ie. Our Father, Cherubic Hymn, Holy God, All you who have been baptized, We bow to your Cross, Lord have mercy (from the Litanies), festal tropars for Christmas, Easter, Many years, Eternal Memory, etc. Even if they were relegated to the back of the book, at least they'd be there for people to use. As for Spanish, we have a number of neighborhood folks attending our Liturgies. We've had baptisms, chrismations, DLs, and even a quinceneria all in Spanish. The need is there. We have more taken in Spanish on a Sunday than in Slavonic.

I understand that this was not directed at me, but considering that only three posts above it I commented on "Christians of the True Faith," I want to point out that I am consistent in my preference for ages of ages, Orthodox or an accurate translation of it (which would mean an accurate translation of Catholic as well), and Theotokos (or an accurate translation of it, which I do not believe Mother of God is). I have seen this phenomenon you are speaking of and commented on it elsewhere. The impression I get from some people is that they simply do not want change, whether that change is to make the text more or less accurate.

I agree with you on all three, Wondering.

Fr. Deacon Lance wrote:

Well, I can only speak for myself. I am NOT complaining about Theotokos. Bohoroditsa would work too. Using the original Greek word can't be incorrect because that's the original word. Some Greek words don't lend themselves to be translated easily. Orthodox should be Orthodox. Theotokos should be Theotokos.

However, Father Deacon, at least those who are against 'Theotokos' being used aren't being coy and disguising their reasons, they're coming out and saying what they dislike it and why. Yet the powers to be in our church can't bring themselves to say why they don't like the word 'Orthodox'. They either ignore the question or dance around the real answer. You know as well as I do that there are many in our church that harbor negative animus towards the Orthodox and the word 'Orthodox'. That's a shame.

Monomakh

As I think I stated above, I am not opposed to using "Theotokos." I simply pointed out that the principle of making the Liturgy "understandable" to English speaking men of the 21st century (which was the reason for the "inclusive language") was not followed here. I also pointed out that Mother of God has been an acceptable translation of Theotokos ("Birth-giver" of God) for a long, long time. One who gives birth to another is indeed that one's mother.

The article to which I was refering states:



The online Britannica states



[my emphasis]

Let me reiterate that I don't have any problems with Theotokos. In fact, I'd be happy as a clam if the whole Liturgy were in Greek, then we wouldn't have the difficulties we are now having unless of course anthropos was dropped from the Creed.