|
1 members (1 invisible),
426
guests, and
121
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,524
Posts417,640
Members6,178
| |
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,516
Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
|
|
Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,516 |
Ok, not making light of the subject,but just being a little full of humour at the moment.. you could theorectically start a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church outside of Pittsburgh in Exile and use the old books?
-in light of ols's question, what are ye going to do?
Last edited by Orthodox Pyrohy.; 02/08/07 09:03 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724 Likes: 2 |
Ok, so what do we call it? RBCOP? BCOP, RBCOPIE, ?? Of course, it could be the True and Genuine Unreformed Byzantine Catholic Church Outside of Pittsburgh In Exile - TGUBCCOOPIE. This is all sounding kind of Slavic, you know. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 58
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 58 |
...and I'm on board with those who want to stay in and fight for authentic Byzantine Catholicism.
In Christ,
Deacon Robert With all due respect, Dcn Robert- will you define 'authentic' BCism ? Isn't this the core problem? Thinking about this situation and honestly facing it, it is clear that the forum posters are generally educated in their Faith and offer educated opinions. In reality, I would be willing to bet that once the new books are out and used consistently for two months that the majority of 'our people' in the pews won't even remember what used to be. Think about it, Take the 30-year-old-books away, have the cantor call out sick and what you have are maybe five people who know the Liturgy by heart. Have your cantor and choir stop singing and listen to what instantly happens in the pews. How many of our old people even know what 'inclusive language' means? I can't speak for the bishops, but it appears the 'troublemakers' are few. Maybe they are banking on the 'sheep factor'?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
Orthodox Catholic Toddler Member
|
|
Orthodox Catholic Toddler Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904 |
... How many of our old people even know what 'inclusive language' means? I can't speak for the bishops, but it appears the 'troublemakers' are few. Maybe they are banking on the 'sheep factor'? My guess is a few hundred might leave this year, no more. Perhaps under 200. Some may go over to the Melkites or Ukrainians, and feel uncomfortable. Some might try out the Orthodox church, but not because they really want to. Some might just stay home, or cut their contributions (which is a lot like staying home from the funding perspective). No parishes will break away, the title is at the Chancery, those days are all over. The real danger to the church is apathy. If the most motivated parishioners lose heart they will be ineffective evangelisers. If the coffee hour conversation is all negative any visitors coming in will be turned off. The newer version of the liturgy should put 'fire in the belly', people should be excited. They should be optimistic. It could herald a major turnaround in the prospects! The way it is looking though, this might be a period of more of the same. How long before the Eparchy of Parma slips under 10,000 people? How long before the Eparchy of Van Nuys slips under 3,000? All the negative talk should stop, or you might as well plan for one bishop in the not-too-distant future, not four. Good luck and God bless everyone, Michael
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 143 |
I am finding that the younger generation is NOT clamoring for "inclusive language" but for Slavonic!!! (Now that's a whole other subject I want to take up with those who wish on this forum because I could use some discernment help pastorally about the Slavonic issue.)Clamoring for Slavonic is something that the 1960's generation could never have imagined. So, we now have pew books with NO Slavonic even though that is what the younger generation IS clamoring for along with other issues as well. If we were really going to be cutting edge we would have listened to our younger people and included some Slavonic in the new books I don't think the issue of Slavonic should become part of this debate. Slavonic has a place, and I know I may tread on some feelings here, but there are many traditionally minded folks in our parishes who do not pine for more Slavonic. I realize many might disagree with me. I respect those who love Slavonic. But, as for myself, I was not raised on it and I am concerned that we become an evangelistic Church, faithful to our tradition, reaching out to all.
Last edited by Nec Aliter; 02/09/07 12:55 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 75
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 75 |
For me, changing the Creed is not being authentic.
Adhering to our origins/Traditions is important. Being TRUE is important.
How will I have consistency for my young children when we recite one Creed at home and a different one at Church?
No, I cannot remain. I must have consistency for my children. I must leave.
Maybe in a few months no one will notice/remember the changes. But, I for one find changing the Creed scandalous.
Am I a troublemaker? Just because I know what is right and true for my family? I am no troublemaker. I am broken hearted, but this isn't the first time and it will not be the last.
Blessed is our God!
corsair
Ps My daughter is six and she knows the Divine Liturgy by heart! (obviously not the Troparion, Prokimenon, etc.) She sings from beginning to end every Sunday. She may not know what "inclusive language" is. But, she knows that her father is a man, and he is head of our domestic home. She knows her obedience brings blessings on her parents, particularly on her father who is the (visable) authority in our home. When she recites the Creed, she says "WHO FOR US MEN AND FOR OUR SALVATION."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 616
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 616 |
Glory to Jesus Christ! I would NEVER suggest that we become the Byzantine Exarchate Beyond and Outside Pittsburgh. Although isn't there some inherent musical quality about calling us the BEBOPs?  Deacon El
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 937
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 937 |
What about ARC? American Ruthenian Church? :-)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346 Likes: 1
Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
|
|
Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346 Likes: 1 |
With all due respect, Dcn Robert- will you define 'authentic' BCism ?
I simply mean we should pray what we believe, and believe what we pray, our belief being grounded in the unalderated teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ handed down to us in Holy Tradition. Our public prayer (Liturgy) in English should be accurately translated from the original Greek and Slavonic so as to reflect what was being transmitted in those languages, and should not be tainted with a faddish, politically correct "spin".
Hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.
In Christ,
Dn. Robert
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346 Likes: 1
Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
|
|
Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346 Likes: 1 |
Ok, not making light of the subject,but just being a little full of humour at the moment.. you could theorectically start a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church outside of Pittsburgh in Exile and use the old books?
-in light of ols's question, what are ye going to do? I thought that is what ACROD was originally all about, esp. before the acceptance by Constantinople. Johnstown is definitely outside Pittsburgh.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346 Likes: 1
Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
|
|
Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346 Likes: 1 |
Ok, so what do we call it? RBCOP? BCOP, RBCOPIE, ?? Of course, it could be the True and Genuine Unreformed Byzantine Catholic Church Outside of Pittsburgh In Exile - TGUBCCOOPIE. This is all sounding kind of Slavic, you know. I think you could call this new entity something like "The American Carpatho-Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak, Hungarian, Croatian, Serbian, Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of the U.S.A, and all the Seven Seas, Inc., a Pennsylvania Corporation". The short name would be ACRUSHCSOGCCUSAASSPC. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 28 |
...and I'm on board with those who want to stay in and fight for authentic Byzantine Catholicism.
In Christ,
Deacon Robert With all due respect, Dcn Robert- will you define 'authentic' BCism ? Isn't this the core problem? Authentic Byzantine Catholic Liturgy is easy to define. Grab one of the books published by Rome and see for yourself. It's all there. Open the "Red Book" from 1964 and see. That is the Liturgy that should have been promulgated. I can't speak for the bishops, but it appears the 'troublemakers' are few. Maybe they are banking on the 'sheep factor'? Why is it that the Revisionists always label those seeking authentic restoration of our tradition as 'troublemakers'?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1 |
"Why is it that the Revisionists always label those seeking authentic restoration of our tradition as 'troublemakers'?"
Because deep down inside they are western christians. They know it. They try to drag the good people down with them. Traitors to the Byzantine tradition all of them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,724 Likes: 2 |
LOL.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 487 |
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Another insight into the inclusive language agenda: Much of this is a generational thing. Just by the simple fact of age, (people in their 50's-60's)the generation that was formed during the 1960's and 1970's is in a sense "in power." They are, across America, the ones who are bishops, seminary rectors, etc., etc. The things that were happening both good and bad in the 1960's were very formative because they were revolutionary-like in character. Those who were in seminary, convents, etc. during that time carry with them today a sense of having gone through a battle to improve the world, a kind of revolution that has ushered in a "better way" of thinking. They believed that inclusive language, the shedding of monastic habits, the questioning of the Magisterium, rejection of Humanae Vitae, etc.
was the great revolution that was going to save the Church and the world. It was the so-called "spirit" of Vatican II mixed in with secular humanism that profoundly influenced this generation during a very formative time in their development. Because the spirit during this time was so revolutionary it left indelible marks on the perspective of this generation. Today, this generation is essentially "in power" and getting to the age where they too will be stepping down, moving on, retiring, etc. So, what I am seeing is the philosophies from this "revolution" trying to make their last gasp, as it were.
The fact that these were such revolutionary and formative years has left certain blind spots in this generation and they cannot understand why everyone does not think like they do. For instance, the perception that inclusive language was an imperative for our Church and therefore for the new translation is a classic example of a blind spot. There was no imperative on the pastoral level,(the most important level) for inclusive language in the Byzantine Catholic Church in America. Inclusive language was deemed imperative by a few. (I want to again reiterate, lest I be misunderstood, that one reason why I am against inclusive language is because it is actually insulting to women as it ultimately strikes at the intrinsic dignity of womanhood. But to understand this we have to ascribed to the Church's theological anthropology which is actually revealed in our liturgy but which is being left unexplored in favor of secular humanism.)
The fact, is, some of these "causes" are in a sense trite. What was cutting edge during the 1960's and 1970's is now "old fashion" to the younger generation. The younger generation does not share these same 1960's "causes." But this is not because the younger people are more "conservative" or "unenlightened" as the 1960's generation would view them. I am finding that the younger generation is NOT clamoring for "inclusive language" but for Slavonic!!! (Now that's a whole other subject I want to take up with those who wish on this forum because I could use some discernment help pastorally about the Slavonic issue.)Clamoring for Slavonic is something that the 1960's generation could never have imagined. So, we now have pew books with NO Slavonic even though that is what the younger generation IS clamoring for along with other issues as well. If we were really going to be cutting edge we would have listened to our younger people and included some Slavonic in the new books. Do you see, now what I mean about the 1960's "causes" becoming outdated? Rather than being cutting edge, they are actually out of touch--the worst nightmare of the 1960's generation worldview! Father Bless! Father Tom, your post was very interesting and thought provoking. You mentioned in the one part how this is a 'generational thing'. This is exactly the reason to not follow flavor of the decade (the 60s in this case). We need a translation that doesn't cater to one generation, and in this case a generation that clearly has an agenda. Just because some moonbats from 60s don't want to hear the word 'man', 'men', or 'mankind' now all of us are going to be stuck with their radicalism (yes I do think it's radical to alter the Creed). And for crying out loud, if any generation was going to be catered to (and I'm not saying that any should be) it should be the younger generation. Now we'll definitely have fewer baptisms and less families with children. I guess every chuch will become 'grey'. You've affectionately mentioned in previous posts the 'troublemakers'. Well, I guess we shouldn't be surprised when the 'troublemakers' in their 20s, 30s, and 40s with families who could care less about Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and the whims of political correctness will take their 'trouble making' ways to the Orthodox church where at least some ounce of Tradition is respected. All we are saying is give the word 'mankind' a chance. All we are saying is give the Red Book a chance. Wouldn't that be groovy?! Monomakh
|
|
|
|
|
