www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Real renewal for the BCC

Yes, Deacon Lance, that is exactly what I and many on this list are doing, voicing our opinion on the need to return to, once again, "That which has been handed down to us". And the opinion of clergy such as yourself has more impact than the opinion of laymen. Voice your opinion, and work to correct the liturgical improprieties. Then, when the Byzantine Church is Orthodox in all but name, the Orthodox might take you seriously.

Alexandr

This is reminiscent of a previous thread where I had been asking some questions about this 'pre-cut' practice...

As described to me, a priest will have some bread pieces in a container of some sort, pour, spill, or otherwise transfer these pieces onto the paten, and then pray. Perhaps the description was a bit 'over the top' or possibly the practice of a new priest, but again it seems important to verify some things for my own understanding:

1. Which bread pieces does the priest have? Typically 13 pieces are needed, including the large excisions for the reposed and the living. Are they commemorated as well?

2. In the 'pre-cut' practice, which probably takes more care than as was described in that one post but so far I have no other information to go on, does the priest arrange the pieces to re-create a 'model of Heaven' under the asterisk?

3. What happens to the other portions of the bread that the 'pre-cuts' are taken from? Does the antidoron get produced from this so all can partake of the same loaf, symbolizing all being in the community?

4. And this is specific for Orthodox clergy like myself: if, some day, we all become one Church, should I expect such tampering with Tradition that I've lately been reading about from this site?

I mean, honestly---I have been called naive before, so those who know me are probably shaking their heads right now and saying "I told you so, Father...", but I took at face value the claim that Byzantine Catholics are 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

However, increasingly from reading the posts at this site it seems like this description really is not the way it is. Worship teaches and directs us in how we should relate to God. If the traditions of the Church are not preserved to help guide and shape us like children at the knee of their Mother, as in this case of the proskomide, then you are not actually living as Orthodox people.

I hope to not be in trouble for saying such a thing, because I am not trying to create trouble, but perhaps my intellectual slowness prevents me from understanding how the Orthodox in communion with Rome statement can be a reality if, in fact, your hierarchs (which you must obey, as Fr. Deacon Lance correctly points out) do not permit you to live as Orthodox people.

Please, someone, explain this to me, or perhaps make a new thread for this question, because otherwise if re-union occurs and I am not permitted to live and worship in the way I know to be right (in other words, from reading this site it seems that the hierarchs will prevent me from living what I know to be true and right), then I don't know what I will do.

+Fr. Chris

Dear Father Chris,

You are not in trouble for the points made. I was hoping that these would be eventually brought into the discussion.

These are serious and straight forward questions being posed, and yet not being answered but instead being rounded or redirected. I am going to refuse to let this thread progress unless the questions asked are replied to in a knowledgeable way. These questions have been asked over and over in other threads and have been redirected or deflected to the shame of those doing it.

If these questions can not be answered in a straight forward and knowledgeable manner, then do not post a reply. I and many others that have been monitoring this section and am tired of seeing these questions posed, only to be ignored. As the moderator to this section I am going to be taking a different tactic in order for this matter to progress forward. If the answers can not be properly answered, any reply posts will be simply deleted until the answers are forthcoming. This is my right as a moderator, and I am invoking it.

I know that this will not please many on either side, but I believe this is necessary for any of these discussions to progress. If this means that posters will now have to start doing their homework before posting, fine so be it! The emotional bantering and avoidance of the questions presented will stop in this section. The shame is that that by the silence demonstrated by the side the supports the revisions in the previous two threads were this demand has also been made is to their shame since they demonstrate their true insensitivity to faithful and clergy alike by not answering anything in a forthright manner. This is done not only to those that post on this forum but to the many that also read the forum without posting.

I must also note that the tacit refusal to answer these points will eventually come back to haunt some. With the spirit of ecumenical dialog with the Orthodox Churches, I will assure you that these points will come up.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Father Chris and Father Anthony,

Would you consider making pre-cuts a thread of their own? I think there is enough to discuss about it to merit a separate discussion from the Metropolitan's speech. Is there anyone who would be willing to *support* or *defend* pre-cut particles? Fr. David Petras says on his site that he considers it the worst latinization in the BCC, and one he wishes to see go away. It is my opinion that this is something which obviously must be set aright across the board, and that has nothing to do with what the Orthodox would think or say (your point 4) but with what is needed for the Byzantine Catholics themselves. (Not to discount the Orthodox view, but to impress that it isn't problematic because the Orthodox say so but because it is a cheap and shoddy way of cutting corners on the one most important aspect of the priestly vocation: the Eucharist.)

Dear Wondering,

Talk is cheap in this case and the actions show little genuine correlation to the Metropolitan's speech. With all the scholarship that the proponents tout, their silence implies along with the Metropolitan's words little if any what truly bodes well for either church growth or in any future dialog towards reproachment with the Orthodox Churches. The questions asked are rather pointed, and their silence only reinforces shoddy scholarship and reinforce that the rhetoric towards being true their roots and laying aside of the fears of the Orthodox is in fact abandoning liturgical tradition among other things as well as being truly "Orthodox" in communion with Rome seems to imply. All they seem to be creating is the Novus Ordo of the Byzantine family of liturgies and only invite some of the problems that plagued the Roman Church since the introduction of that liturgical change.

The questions are still on the table, and I will not entertain any further posts on this thread unless it is in response to the points brought up by Father Chris.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Fr. Chris,

Please note my replies are based on my own experiences in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh.

1. The priest has a Lamb about 2"x2"x1/4". He also has enough 1/4" cube particles to perform the proskomedia and extra particles to commune the faithful.

2. The particles are arranged properly.

3. It is reserved for Mirovanje, as most BC parishes do not give antidoron after every Liturgy

4. The Orthodox in Communion with Rome title is an ideal that most Greek Catholic Churches of any stripe have not earned unfortunately. There are certainly outstanding parishes here and there, the Russian parishes could probably not be distinguished from their Orthodox counterparts. But if someday there is union I would hope the example of the majority would win out.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Evangelizers,

The remarks of Archbishop Basil on renewal in the Byzantine Catholic Church are indeed encouraging. But they are also Providential:

The significant points of the Archbishop's address (as beautifully itemized in the post submitted by "Wondering,")were very much like those presented in 2003 to the clergy of the Eparchy of Parma by the Office of the Syncellus for Parish and Laity. In fact the process for renewal underway in the Archeparchyh was inspired by the impetus begun at this clergy convention in the Eparchy of Parma in 2003. The presenters at this convention included Deacon Dennis Prestash, Helen Kennedy, and professionals from Annunciation Byzantine Catholic parish in Homer Glen, IL. and finally myself as Pastor of Annunciation and Syncellus for Parish and Laity. The Archbishop's remarks were also very similar to remarks that I made in 2004 at the Archeparchy's Spiriutality conference in Monroeville,Pa. when I was invited to speak on parish renewal. The Archbishop's remarks were also very similar to the programs for renewal currently being undertaken by 90 Dioceses across America including the Diocese of Cleveland in their Vibrant Parishes program.(An article about this appeared in the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper during the week of Thanksgiving.) My point of all this: With so many saying (and in some cases actually doing) the same things in regard to renewal we must conclude that however frightening to some, with all emotion aside, this MUST be the voice of the Holy Spirit callng the Church in America, especially the Eastern Catholic Churches in America to the New Evangelization.

At the recent Encounter of the Eastern Churches that took place in Chicago,IL. the table talk was, as always among Eastern Churches that we are and for a long time have been "heomrraghing" people. The Eastern Churches are dying but that is not all bad. We can die by default or we can "implode" via a purposeful plan based on a vision and sense of mission and then "explode" again.

I see it all very Scripturally as many of you recall from my previous posts: The branches must be pruned, the seed must fall to the ground or remain just a seed. In my own words, "we must raze the Byzantine Church to the ground in order to rebuild it according to its authentic self." While this language is strong for some, it nevertheless is a postive message. I want the Eatern Churches to thrive, not just survive and "hang on" just for reasons of convenience, nostalgia or sentiment. The Eastern Churches have precisely what is needed in the modern Western world today but they must be radically, radically cleansed, reconfigured according to their authentic selves, according to a much more authencially Biblical model that is dynamic for our times. Our greatest enemy has been fear which of course is the opposite of faith and therefore, I personally have no use for it.

It is a very healthy thing for a Church to look honestly at itself. It is very unhealthy not to. In all honestly we have become a Church that many would rather go down with than face the challenge, the risk of charting a vibrant future. This is inexusable and we will get what we deserve.

I do not know about you, but I sure do not want to face Almighty God on Judgement Day when He asked us, "So, what happened to my Church? It seems to have disappeared. You were supposed to have stewarded it and brought souls to me through it. I went to alot of trouble to establish that Church. Now what happened to it?" Do we really think that its going to wash when we answer: "Ah, well, I was afraid that someone might get upset or not like me if I suggested changing things. You gotta understand, God, its alot of work and bother to change things. I just wanted the Church to be there for. After I died I didn't really care what happened to it. It was not my worry."

The remarks of Archbishop Basil are indeed encouraging. Now the Eastern Churches actually have to DO renewal. Admittedly, we may
"loose" some. But, if we loose people because they do not love this Church enough to bear with its renewal and growing pains then we did not really "have" these people to begin with. Renewal will test our metal, our faith. It will purify the reason that we are a member of an Eastern Church. Although we want all to come along, serious renewal is not for the faint of heart. But in the end, everyone wins.

--Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB. MA.

Slava vo viki Boga!

In reviewing your posting, I am intriqued by your words:
"we must raze the Byzantine Church to the ground in order to rebuild it according to its authentic self."
It has been my policy to not assume anything anymore, but would this by any chance mean a total delatinization of the BCC, restoration of the full cycle of services and use of the Liturgy of the Ruthenien Recension as put forth by Rome in 1941?
My concern is that the initial steps would be done, statuary removed, along with the pews and stations of the Cross, iconostasi erected, and then instead of a properly translated edition of the Divine Liturgy, a Byzantine Novus ordo will be slipped in by those whose agenda that is. I agree that those who leave over abolition of both overt and subliminal latinizations will do so because they were never really there anyway, but of greater concern is the mindset of those that remain. There is a subliminal latinized mindset of many that I have observed, that frankly, is incompatible with the Eastern view. How deep do you intend to clean, how far will you prune? Would this result in the recreation of Orthodox in communion with Rome, as your Church was chartered, or will it be a new Eastern Roman rite, with innovations that are not Orthodox in concept or praxis? Your words that I find troubling are:
"The Eastern Churches have precisely what is needed in the modern Western world today but they must be radically, radically cleansed, reconfigured according to their authentic selves, according to a much more authencially Biblical model that is dynamic for our times." Forgive me Father, being the doubting Thomas that I am, but these words just have a very Protestant ring to them, which I find disconcerting.

As I see it, as one from the outside, looking in, is the ideal should be that the ONLY difference between a Byzantine Rusyn (Ruthenian is a latinization!)Catholic church and an Orthodox church is which bishop is commemerated. That must always be the goal. Anything less and the Latinizers win.

Alexandr

"As I see it, as one from the outside, looking in, is the ideal should be that the ONLY difference between a Byzantine Rusyn (Ruthenian is a latinization!)Catholic church and an Orthodox church is which bishop is commemerated. That must always be the goal. Anything less and the Latinizers win."

Bravo Alexandr!

My two months as a new convert to the Orthodox church has been a real spiritual awakening.

A full cycle of regular weekly services, (VESPERS on Saturday WITHOUT Liturgy), an hour and a half Liturgy on Sunday, (One liturgy only!) have really made me appreciate the Christian east. I should have done this years ago after seeing that pre cut proskomidia fiasco without an icon screen and the altar boy ringing the sanctus bells! Oh well...

I will continue to pray for the Greek Catholic Church to recover their roots, as people that are dear to me belong to it.

I suggest that everyone look at this article that was posted in the initial post in this thread:

http://www.archeparchy.org/page/bcw-online/BCW_PDF06/BCW_26nov06_pg_05_web.pdf


The part that is still the most confusing here is this part:
"At the same time, he stressed that the church should be an 'authentic place of worship... that should reflect that we are members of the Byzantine Catholic Church."

If Archbishop Basil wants us to be an 'authentic place of worship' then how, as I pretty much learned today, can the cathedral in Munhall not have Vespers and Matins. As far as I know they have a full time priest and a qualfied cantor. What possbile excuse can there be not to celebrate these services? Can anybody that attends the cathedral in Munhall clarify this and confirm that these services do not take place.

Monomakh

I love the ending about pedaling with the church. Since I converted to Holy Orthodoxy I feel like I'm on a Harley!!!

I'm honestly happy for you.

But for us that are still here there are some important questions to get answers to.

I for one am trying to figure out why in world a parish like the Cathedral in Munhall with a full time pastor and a very qualified cantor don't celebrate Vespers and Matins. How can one call upon us to have an 'authentic place of worship' and yet ignore important services such as these? I still haven't heard one good reason why this is so.

Monomakh

Monomakh wrote:
I think part of the reason, as I have been told, is due to the fact that people in Pennsylvania are afraid of the word orthodox. Let's face it, having those services will bring us closer to orthodoxy and that is uncomfortable for our brethren in Pennsylvania.

Coming from a parish in the Archdiocese, to one in the Parma Eparchy, I was shocked at the differences. When I questioned my pastor he said it was due to a former Archbishop who loved Latinizing the Byzantine Church. Any time he "ran into" an Eastern priest, he shipped them off to the hinterlands, which was anything outside of his "territory." So, Pittsburgh and the rest of the state stayed highly Latinized, while the places West became more Eastern. (ByzKat, if I am wrong on this, please correct me!)

I have noticed in my own home parish that the tide is beginning to change....however slowly it may go. Many, many priests know what to do, I suspect though they don't get much support.

Why the Cathedral isn't setting the "Byzantine" example is beyond me. My own Cathedral still kneels at the consecration and at the communion prayer. Go figure.

I think we need to "grow" our seminarians better, with education on what it truly means to be Eastern. From the priests I've seen being ordained, I think the future looks bright. However, lest I start an uproar, it seems to be that the men who convert and come to our seminary from the Latin church are the most Eastern. Maybe the former Latins will end up saving us -- wouldn't that be a hoot? Has anyone else experienced this?

This has been bothering me all day. What will become of us Byzantine Catholic Rusyns? It seems like no one wants us to survive ... let alone thrive.

If you mean people outside the BCC, I would disagree with that statement.