www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine Rosary

I know for many of us, this is old stuff, but yet it is a very vital part of our prayer life. There are many new comers to the forum, who may wonder or not realize there is a bit of difference. So I hope to those it helps bring understanding...
http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Rosary.htm

Thank you Pani Rose, I appreciate it very much!

I have never heard about this and in our parish we are not taught the rosary of any Rite (either RC or Ukrainian Catholic). This is st interesting to read about.

I do have to mention my Dad was taught the RC rosary (in Ukrainian of course) by Ukrainian Basilian priests in Ukraine so I guess it matters who the priests in the parish at the time. He also taught me! I still see him recite it practically daily.
I think it all depended what type of priests you had/have in your parish.

Peace.

I have to agree about the RC rosary. There are those attached to that devotion who, through much wishful thinking, have tried to make it into an eastern devotion which never existed. There is nothing at all wrong with the rosary, but it was, is, and will remain an RC devotion. That being said, I see nothing wrong with using it as long as you don't discard genuine eastern devotions for it.

Dear byzanTN,

Hoping my post about the rosary isn't a surprise to you :), the practice of reciting 150 "Hail Mary's" has been a solid one on Mt Athos and in the Thebaid for centuries before St Dominic was said to have his vision of the Rosary (in fact, as Dominicans will tell you, there is NO reference to this vision in the earlier Lives of St Dominic at all!).

When we pray "Rejoice O Theotokos Virgin," well, one can't get any more Eastern than that in venerating the Mother of God. And Orthodox books, including the 2003 Encyclopaedia of Orthodoxy published in Moscow include the 15 decades of the Rule of the Theotokos as part of its prayer section.

It is simply a myth that the rosary/rule of the Theotokos is RC and I suspect that view arises among those who feel they must make hard and fast distinctions between "Eastern" and "Latin" devotions in all cases.

I used to believe that, but I was wrong.

Alex

I believe we have had this discussion many times before, and I still think you are one of the primary sources of internet information that tries to make the RC rosary into something it is not - eastern. If you like the rosary, say it. There's nothing wrong with it. However, the Dominican rosary is RC. Somewhere in the east, someone could have hypothetically carried 150 pebbles in a pocket, and said a prayer on each one as they moved a single rock from pocket to pocket. but it wouldn't have been the rosary. I think this is a case of trying to blur real distinctions between eastern and western devotions.

Dear Charles,

A rosary by any other name . . .

Thank you for the compliment! I'm not the only one, however, who says the rosary/rule of the Theotokos is Eastern.

St Seraphim of Sarov, St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, St Dmitri of Rostov, a number of others mentioned in chapter six of Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint. Today, at the Holy Orthodox Monastery of Diveyevo, the Nuns walked around the perimeter of their monastery, as they do each and every day, reciting the 150 Hail Mary's, in decades with each headed with an Our Father, and in honour of 15 Mysteries of the Life of Christ and the Theotokos. On feastdays, they sing the Rule.

St Seraphim of Sarov himself taught his spiritual children that the Mother of God revealed the Rule of 150 Hail Mary's etc. to a monk of the Thebaid in the 8th century and that ALL Christians, East and West, once recited it daily. He even said that this prayer was MORE important than any other in invoking the Protection on our lives of the Mother of God.

Again, this is all taken from Orthodox sources. I have only been the messenger.

We shall agree to disagree. One may be accused, validly, of blurring distinctions between east and west. However, it is also a valid criticism when we try to make distinctions where there are none to be made.

If I'm the only one on the internet talking about this, it is because all the others are busying praying their rosary/rule of the Theotokos, especially during the Great Fast!

Again, thank you for the unexpected compliment!

Alex

All I can relate to you are my own experiences. When I am around Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics - I am part of the Ruthenian Church, btw - the rosary is quite familiar. That's not surprising since both of those churches are Latinized. When I talk with more authentically eastern Christians who haven't been around Latins, they are, for the most part, unfamiliar with the rosary. They know the prayer rope, but not the rosary. The few who do know about the rosary consider it Latin. When I first saw a copy of the "Prayer Rule of the Mother of God" I was naturally curious as to where it came from. Several sources said it was made up by a guy named Alex on the Internet. I have no problem with the rosary, however, I wish some in the Ruthenian and Ukrainian churches would use the eastern, rather than the western forms of the prayers. You are right, we will have to agree to disagree. I have nothing against the rosary, but do not accept it as genuinely eastern. Next you will try to get me to believe "for us and our salvation" comes from the Creed.

Dear Charles,

Certainly, reciting the rosary as a public liturgical service in Church is wrong (in the Christian East). No parishes I know of up here do that.

There are prayer ropes divided into decades that Orthodox use for both the Rule of Optina for the Jesus Prayer and for the Rule of the MOther of God. You can see it in "Staretz Zecharish: An Early Soviet Saint," there is a publication of Orthodox Word on St Seraphim of Sarov that contains it, and the Russian language Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy 2003 that also has it.

The fact that I related it on the internet does not mean it originates with myself, or that I have an agenda to force something Western down Eastern throats. Initially, I rejected the rosary as something purely Latin. It was the example of St Seraphim of Sarov et al. that brought me back to it.

I have friends who are "more Orthodox than the Orthodox" and until they see something like the book Staretz Zechariah, they will not change their views - which is why I give them as many copies as I can afford!

Again, the internet, as you know, doesn't have everything. And the fact that there are Orthodox Christians who have never heard of the rule - or some who would consider it a monastic practice, an entirely RC practice owing to the fact of its immense popularity in the Western Church, all that doesn't change the fact that it is popular in Russian Orthodoxy especially.

I know Orthodox Christians who feel the Jesus Prayer and the prayer rope are for monastics only and to tell them they should be practicing it or own a prayer rope - well, they look at you funny!

My only point in responding to your post is really that this does not come from me - it comes from St Seraphim of Sarov and others and I'm only the messenger.

So don't shoot the messenger!

A holy Fast to you and Father Anthony (whose broken limb is healing nicely, we trust!)

Alex

So what happened to Fr. Anthony? I must have missed that.

Istok.net sells what I assume are Russian Rosaries

http://www.istok.net/search.php?mode=search

Well, I got the herbal tea page from that site. Since no one is going to tell me anything about Fr. Anthony.... I admire St. Seraphim greatly, and think he is a saint who should be better known, both east and especially west. He developed several devotions, some of which I use myself. But given his years of isolation, and the area he was in, I seriously doubt he ever saw a Roman Catholic rosary in his life. I view his devotions that are similar to the RC rosary as by accident, rather than by design. I don't claim to be any expert on the rosary, but understand the Latins now have 20 decades, instead of the traditional 15. I have no idea what the new mysteries are, but a friend calls them the "mediocre mysteries." Evidently, he doesn't find them of equal significance to the original 15. I will leave the rosary to its devotees and the Latins, and just keep my prayer rope.

Father Anthony fell sometime around Halloween and broke his leg. I haven't heard any updates, which I have also assumed to mean he is healing nicely.

Pope John Paul II proposed the addition of the mysteries of light to the rosary when he introduced a Year of the Rosary, a private devotion he was very vocal about his attachment to and suggestion of. Any interested can read his letter here [vatican.va]. The five Luminous mysteries are Christ�s baptism; His self-revelation at Cana; His proclamation of the kingdom of God; His transfiguration; and His institution of the Eucharist. Many traditionalists, who already were not very keen on him, were quite upset that he would "mess" with the rosary, and some remain vocal about their dislike of the man as well as the mysteries he proposed.

The Luminous Mysteries are very Eastern friendly, since the mysteries focus on many major feasts that are thought of more in the East than in the West.

The Transfiguration is barely a blip on the radar screen of Western Christianity.

And to call the Mysteries of the Baptism of the Lord in the Jordan, the first Miracle which was performed at the request of the Theotokos, the preaching and teaching of Our Lord, The Transfiguration, and the institution of the Holy Eucharist mediocre says much more about the person who hates the new mysteries than the mysteries themselves.

I think that this says a lot about the approach to spirituality in the West. The West uses imagination in prayer, whereas the East tries to get the pray-er to keep his mind "blank" as it were. (I'm generalizing and not taking into account specifics.) The other Mysteries are easier to get one's emotions up and down than these new ones. The Joyful are nice and cute, the Sorrowful will tear your heart out, and the Glorious are in anticipation of the Life to come. So imagination plays heavily in the proper recitation of the Rosary.

I couldn't care less where the Rosary came from. Personally, I think it is a Roman Catholic devotion in origin, but it is useable by anyone.

Praying the Rosary helps me to honor the Mother of God and to remember the Life of Christ. She, in turn, helps me to draw closer to her Son, Jesus Christ.

Cudos to what Dr. Eric said about the Mysteries of Light.

Fond thanks to Wondering for posting that link.

-- John